Currently reading: Exclusive interview: VW Group boss Muller on Dieselgate and future plans
In the wake of Dieselgate, Matthias Müller picked up the poisoned chalice to become VW Group CEO. He tells Autocar's Steve Cropley why

It is 9am on the first day of the Frankfurt motor show, perhaps the Volkswagen Group’s most important meeting with its clientele and critics for the next two years.

I’m bound for a 45-minute meeting with its CEO, Matthias Müller, which I’m told will be his only one-on-one interview in English. Why choose us? I presume it’s because Autocar reports things very fully compared with glib dailies and because our much-consulted website gets everywhere.

High on our talk agenda is Müller’s announcement the previous evening of the company’s business plan between now and 2025, called Roadmap E and self-described as “the most comprehensive electrification initiative in the automotive industry”. And we’re bound to touch on Dieselgate.

Earth-shaking morning headlines have sprung up everywhere, and rightly so. The VW Group will launch 80 electric vehicles by 2025, they say, and have 300 electrified models on the market by 2030. The group has earmarked an eye-watering £18 billion “for the industrialisation of e-mobility” and will soon seek tenders for the £45bn worth of batteries it estimates “transformation in our industry” will need.

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Rounding everything off is a stirring quote from Müller himself: “We have got the message and we will deliver. This is not some vague declaration of intent. It is a strong self-commitment which, from today, becomes the yardstick by which we measure our own performance.”

I’m expecting this to be a formal interview: German top executives usually prefer formality. These are serious topics and top bosses generally have their dignity to protect. So I’m surprised as we enter the inner sanctum of meeting rooms to find Müller leaning casually against one of the corridor walls, chatting with colleagues.

He’s an imposing figure: white-haired but youthful without glasses, and tanned from what I presume must be several recent weeks off in the sun. He looks like he could be a sailor. He smiles, proffers a firm hand, uses my Christian name, ushers me easily into one of the little rooms, sits obligingly where the photographer suggests (some don’t) and generally acts as if this meeting matters (again, some don’t).

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After the awesome tone of Roadmap E, it hardly seems appropriate to start nitpicking details or asking if he really meant it, so I open up by wondering to what extent this policy change is motivated by 'Dieselgate' or 'the diesel scandal', two expressions I’m interested to see Müller has used with neither false emphasis nor embarrassment in our first few minutes. “Our new roadmap is not driven only by diesel,” he says, tacitly acknowledging right there that it is at least part of the driving force.

“Back when [Martin] Winterkorn was running the company at the start of 2015, we started big discussions about the future of the group, called ‘Future Tracks’. At first, there wasn’t much content beyond the fact that we needed to get going. Then, in autumn 2015, we had Dieselgate and I was asked to take over.

“It became clear the diesel scandal would have to be the incubator for our new strategy. We worked hard on it, discussing what the future product portfolio would be, and especially what our engine combinations would be – combustion, electric, plug-in, gas or what? Around the end of last year, we reached most of the conclusions for Roadmap E, then set out to put them into practice. What you see now is our commitment for the next 10 to 15 years.”

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I’m impressed by how fully Volkswagen has embraced electrification – and say so – but Müller neither boasts about how far his company has come nor complains about the circumstances that have imposed its mighty workload. All very well to commit to electrification, I reply, but what about the unprofitability of electric cars? If you commit to selling so many, and spend so much of your capital on them, how will you ever make money?

“That’s easy,” Müller says, which rather takes me aback. Not much is easy in the car game, especially combating costs. But Müller says he knows beyond doubt that the cost of batteries and other key components will fall dramatically in the next few years in a way conventional car parts won’t do. “We expect to be able to take a huge step towards earning money,” he explains, “although in the next generation electric cars may not be as profitable as combustion models – which is why we talk about having a good co-existence between combustion and electrified models. We see a tipping point between the two in five to seven years, which will help balance our revenues.”

Müller seems markedly less sure that customers will see this as a painless journey. “Combustion engines must provide the bridge,” he says. “Getting to full electric cars will take a lot of years and none of us yet knows how many. The customer will decide that. But as long as charging infrastructure is so poor, it will not happen quickly. All governments have to take extra care of it.”

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I’m curious to understand from Müller why VW sales have stayed so strong, why its customers still love the cars despite the diesel furore. The CEO lets go a quick, ironic chuckle, evidently at the way bullish sales contrast so completely with the company’s trial by fire in the media. “It results from several things,” he says. “An attractive product portfolio, the continuing confidence of customers in our brands, ability of our employees. And it is happening all over the world.”

What’s the future of the VW Group’s status as the world’s biggest-selling car company? Will it matter in 2025? Others that have worn the crown – General Motors and Toyota, for two – tend to argue that the quality of today’s deals is more important than the quantity. “Being number one does matter,” says Müller, “and it will matter in 2025. We think we can achieve it, too, but the task is to decide where you lead. In vehicle sales? In number of models? In mobility services? We are working on them all.” Besides all the new model talk, Müller has introduced important strategies behind the scenes. One is to reduce the VW Group’s well-known reputation for authoritarian management, which is leading Müller to give more independence to his brands.

“We have a very complex group structure,” he says, “with 620,000 employees and 12 brands. It takes a great deal of management energy, effort and time to integrate things as we do. Maybe there’s another way of doing that. I have no answer today, but we’re working on it.”

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As always, our talk time is running out. I’m desperate to pose the killer question that has hung over Müller since he took the VW Group CEO job: why on Warth would you do this? Why would you deliberately take responsibility for the misdeeds of predecessors? Müller was in his early sixties when he accepted this gig from the security of the top job at Porsche; surely it must have crossed his mind to walk away as other blameless, high-profile VW officials had done? Again, the wry chuckle.

“The motivation was to help my employer,” begins the man born in East Germany, who went to school in Ingolstadt and became an Audi apprentice before returning to university and stepping into management. “I have been at VW for 44 years and have taken a lot from the group. When they asked if I could help in a difficult situation, I thought about these things when making my decision. I know the group’s strengths and weaknesses, I told them, and I have an idea how to change it. I am not sure it will work, but I will try.”

Müller’s assistants are glancing more frequently at their watches.

I find I’ve warmed to this man: he is far more candid than previous contact had led me to expect, and far more humble. Last time we met was in Los Angeles, where his job was to launch the Porsche Macan to expected success – a gig almost guaranteed to encourage overconfidence.

Before I leave, I ask Müller to summarise the difficulties of the job. His answer is a surprise: “It wasn’t so hard at first, but it has become tougher over time – because of diesel, the transformation of our business, digitisation, connectivity, autonomous driving, shared mobility and all that stuff. It amounts to a very big challenge, for sure. But it is also fun.” 

Müller on…

Future diesels:

“We believe they will continue to sell. First, they’re clean. Second, we need them to meet CO2 targets. Third, they suit a lot of customers. So we will go on promoting diesels, although perhaps not for the smallest models. We will invest in a new diesel generation, too, in about 2019 or 2020.”

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Autonomous cars:

“My view is the first step will not involve you and me. It will be for taxis and parcel delivery in urban areas, where speeds are low and the driver is the most expensive part. Years later, when systems are developed and the cars can go faster, they will go into the mass market.”

VW’s mid-term prospects:

“Our past success has been based on our product portfolio and this is the answer for the future. We have a huge array of very attractive products and our concepts show the way for the next five years or so. I am convinced we will be successful if we do our homework well.”

The impact of fines on VW’s finances:

“Does $20bn for the US have an impact? Of course it does. I would like to have that money in my pocket now, but I don’t. Nevertheless, VW is a very robust company and can finance all of its new projects.”

Joining the ‘good guys’ again:

“Things are moving, but not fast enough. We can’t estimate when it will be over. There are justice issues that continue and they could take years to be resolved, maybe as many as 10. Will it be possible to win confidence back with the justice issues ongoing? It’s impossible to say.”


“I have no opinions on this, although I am definitely a European. The British should do what they want.”


“I will retire in three years, after five years leading the group. I hope by then we will have won back the confidence of our customers and the authorities, and that the group is well prepared for the next 10 years.”

His successor:

“I want to leave things so my successor shouldn’t need to change everything but be able to proceed with the decisions we are making now.”

Steve Cropley

Steve Cropley Autocar
Title: Editor-in-chief

Steve Cropley is the oldest of Autocar’s editorial team, or the most experienced if you want to be polite about it. He joined over 30 years ago, and has driven many cars and interviewed many people in half a century in the business. 

Cropley, who regards himself as the magazine’s “long stop”, has seen many changes since Autocar was a print-only affair, but claims that in such a fast moving environment he has little appetite for looking back. 

He has been surprised and delighted by the generous reception afforded the My Week In Cars podcast he makes with long suffering colleague Matt Prior, and calls it the most enjoyable part of his working week.

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Pthompson 8 October 2017

Waste of time

what a waste of an interview. You are well aware of the multitude of issues facing owners who have had the dieselgate fix. Breakdowns, broken parts, loss of MPG but you didn't think to ask about those? Did you go easy on him to maintain their advertising with you. No impartiality. No new news. Waste of a flight. 

Spanner 8 October 2017

Funny old world

It's a funny old world. Clearly millions of VWs continue to be sold, its in the top 5 for reliability, and some (an unbelievably small minority) still think that millions of VW owners are dull lifeless morons who are being led by the devil because they can't think for themselves. They rage at every VW they see, and can't stop themselves inwardly shouting "sheep". The arrogance of this is quite breathtaking when put in that context.

However, even extreme minorities are entitled to their opinions, but the curious thing is generally it is extreme opinions which seem to have the most motivation to shout, and with modern technologies the biggest platform to them shout from. See the rise of extreme polarisation in modern politics and read any comments section in any publication for examples of this.

I would say VW have committed a heinous crime, 20bn is a lot for a single fine even for a corporate, and this chap seems to be the man to lead them onwards out of this. Even the worst criminals deserve redemption, if they reform and are contrite about their crimes. Which from this interview is apparently the case for VW as actions speak louder than words, and VW are acting. 


torovich 10 October 2017

Actions Speak Louder Than Words

VAG cheated for a reason. They are now removing their cheat from vehicles, and surprise these vehicles are suffering a range of problems including unfixable breakdowns.

So yes, let's have some action and get a proper fix.

fadyady 7 October 2017

Good job, Mr Cropley!

That is really a good interview and shows the direction to other so called car magazines who have limited themselves to writing sycophantic reviews for this car giant. Autocar's coverage of the "Dieselgate" has been unmatched in the UK at least. Anyone who thinks reporting this issue was in any way less important than run of the mill car reviews, is not a real car nut. At last Volkswagen has committed a real life budget for the electrification. Following the exposè of the diesel scandal, VW earmarked a couple of billion dollars for the same. I laughed. For a company the size of VW that was a poor joke. It's smaller than their annual PR costs. Autocar has done a great job. But once the spotlight moves off the VW they will undoubtedly try to revert to selling diesel as panacea for everything. Which it is not. Not even Euro 6! If it was the new test will not give the diesel 210 percent tolerance. Secondly VW will sell diesels in the very lucrative US market. Problem with diesel is in the discrepancy between tests and real life driving. This is where petrol walks all over diesel since petrol has no problem meeting emissions standards in real life conditions. Once you add the higher emissions production costs of the diesel even the much hyped CO2 advantage disappears. Muller should lead the car industry in technology solutions just as he does in sales figures and announce end of diesel in sub-compact cars and its replacement with hybrid power train. Volkswagen can do that. Muller has three years to be remembered as the captain of the industry or just a guy who swelled sales figures.
torovich 7 October 2017

Mr Muller has missed his chance to make a positive contribution

When Mr Muller took over the job, he had a one off opportunity to be transparent about why Vehicle Manufacturers chose the cheat over the past 10 (some say 25) years, and what the real impact of removing the cheat device would be.

He chose to reject this opportunity and continue VAG's cheating ways. Mr Muller will be remembered as the man who wrecked diesel before it's time and betrayed a generation of loyal customers and the public at large. Autocar could have done much more to hold VAG to account, but he who pays the Piper calls the tune.

Winston Churchill 7 October 2017

FadyAdy, you won’t be happy

FadyAdy, you won’t be happy until VW goes into administration and every single worker loses their job. Weirdo.

GODFATHER 7 October 2017

What about the idiots that

What about the idiots that bought a VW for its notorious “German technology” lol. If they end up in administration, it’s because they deserve to be there after lying and excessively polluting the air that we ALL breath. Plus the fact that they continue to lie to it’s european customers while GENEROUSLY refunding their American customers. Compleately deserved I say.  

fadyady 7 October 2017


Winston Churchill wrote:

FadyAdy, you won’t be happy until VW goes into administration and every single worker loses their job. Weirdo.

On the contrary I think this is the most positive and upbeat post I've written about the VW since the diesel scandal broke. Muller should make Volkswagen take the lead in new power trains. Dropping diesel altogether from Polo size cars immediately would be a good start. It makes good financial sense. Other car makers will inevitably follow.

torovich 8 October 2017


All I want from VAG is Openness, Honesty and Respect. If the law then decides that they shouldn't exist then so be it.

After 2 years of investigation, the Authorities have done no tests to establish if the "Fix" reduces emissions or disadvantages the customer in real world conditions. VAG have never said why they needed to cheat in the first place. Personally, I find that all a bit strange.