Tue
Apr 08 2008

Stop this twin-clutch madness now

John McIlroy

I stole Autocar’s current Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X last night, keen to see how a performance icon has managed the transfer to a completely new model after, well, increasingly frayed incarnations from VII to IX.

Did I enjoy it? Yes and no. Many of the traditional Evo strengths are still present: incredible turn-in, great balance and traction, the constant belief that the transmission is one step (slip?) ahead of you. Oh yes, and the fact that there’s no torque whatsoever beneath 2000rpm (well, I still find it charming, anyway). And it’s quick, of course; once the whoosh sets in you get a terrific prod in your kidneys.

But (didn’t you know there was a ‘but’ coming?) at the heart of the latest Evo is the Twin Clutch SST gearbox, yet another take on the ‘semi-auto’ theme with steering wheel-mounted paddles and a press release boasting of previously unimaginable shift times. The irony of this is not lost on me, because a few years ago, Mitsubishi released an automatic version of the Evo VII. And we laughed.

Now, though, it seems that a more sophisticated slusher is the centrepiece of the model. So can I make a plea? Manufacturers (yes, that means you, Mitsubishi, Audi and Ford), can we establish once and for all that DSG/Speedshift/SST gearboxes – twin-clutchers – are not as rewarding to use as a stick? I drove the Evo for a good couple of hours and only once, once, did I really feel involved in what was going on.

The rest of the journey was spent either in the wrong ‘gear’ or waiting while the SST gearbox appeared to ride not one clutch, but two.

There is hope, of course; Mitsubishi has said that in preparation for the car’s use in rallying (the sport that spawned it in the first place, after all) a five-speed manual Evo X will be made available. In the meantime, I’d like a VI Tommi Mäkinen Edition, please, with Ralliart  sidestripes, white wheels and a proper stick between the front two seats. In my view it’s never been bettered.

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About John McIlroy

Used to report on the WRC for Autosport magazine; jumped to Autocar in '05. Career high? Driving McRae's Ford Focus WRC. Career low? Crashing McRae's Ford Focus WRC.

Comments

reha April 8, 2008 7:46 PM

"Stop this twin-clutch madness now"?

stop talking nonsense now. please.

if you have nothing sensible to say about a vehicle, you might as well say nothing.

drray April 8, 2008 10:46 PM

It's good to hear someone standing up for the good old manual transmission!

Having previously owned a golf GTI with DSG, I know exactly what you mean...the  fact I ultimately preferred driving my wife's manual diesel to the GTI told me it was time to move on.

Ultimately all the twin clutch systems are "automatic"; there's something much more satisfying about a full-tilt manual upshift done properly than going "click" on a wheel -mounted paddle, even if the paddle is quicker.

Race cars of all types are about shaving tenths off times; most of us buy our own for enjoyment on road, track or wherever, and the involvement of a manual is a big part of that.

Definitely more manuals, please!

Peter Nunn April 9, 2008 10:16 AM

Mitsubishi does offer a plain and simple, fairly agricultural 5-speed manual on the new Evo in Japan.

It's no work of art, however, and chosen specifically because it's tougher than the 6-speed on Evo IX, and thus better suited for motorsport. But it does feel very dated now compared to the Twin Clutch SST.

You're absolutely right about the Evo VI Tommi Makinen, meantime. Even the Evo engineers here in Japan say that's still the best of the best

Straff April 9, 2008 4:10 PM

You're getting very old Mr McIlroy...

Surely you know today's young, hip and trendy can't wait half a second for a manual shift? Neither can they see why cars can't be driven using a PlayStation hand control.

I can lay my hands on a nice Austin A30 with a crash box, no heater and optional wipers if that's any good?

giulivo72 April 11, 2008 8:59 AM

Quote from drray:

"most of us buy our own for enjoyment on road, track or wherever, and the involvement of a manual is a big part of that"

Oooh, and I thought most of us bought a car to get quickly, conveniently, safely, comfortably and economically from A to B (and C, D....). So I must be an exception instead. And so are the one million people who have bought a DSG to date, and those who have awarded it prizes for innovation.

It's good, then, that you warn Porsche, BMW, Fiat, Mitsubishi, who are all wasting their good money on developing dual clutch (or direct shift) gearboxes.

Your call for "more manuals" is just nonsense. The overwhelming majority of cars available are manuals, only a minority are available as autos, and that minority is (luckily) growing thanks also to the availability of DSG. I am sure you don't need to look hard for an alternative to the Mitsubishi. Is it that difficult to allow others to choose and buy something different than you would?

John McIlroy April 12, 2008 9:58 AM

I'm not objecting to the technology involved; what I do object to is the marketing speel selling these units as systems which are just as involving as a manual 'box but much quicker-shifting...

bad_roo April 18, 2008 4:16 PM

"Now, though, it seems that a more sophisticated slusher is the centrepiece of the model. "

Sorry John, not letting you get away with that howler! Slusher=slushbox=torque converter. Something that an auto gearbox features but which a twin clutch manual signally lacks. ;)

meshman April 25, 2008 1:32 PM

Conventional torque convertor auto boxes are heavy, expensive and inefficient. Manual boxes are a chore even with a good quality gear change and clutch, but are at least efficient. Robotised manual is best of both. Once you have been changing gear with a switch - there is no going back to waggling a stick. And you can use your left foot for braking. DSG? Robotised manual under driver control answers criticisms of DSGs. I won't buy anything else. More RMGs please, especially on real world cars, ie those built for road not Ring.

Peter Cavellini June 2, 2008 12:43 PM

Hay! reha- give the man a chance!- have you driven it yet?, are you a road tester for a top weekly car mag.....?! nuff said i think- he does what most of us would give our grannies teeth for- testing some of the best cars and some of the worst cars on the road today. Maybe Reha you could get some garage to lend you an EVO and you could post your opinion for all of us to read- how about it?

sierra June 2, 2008 8:51 PM

Stop this manual gear change madness now.

It's quite clear if that all current cars were automatics, and somebody then invented a manual box today, there is no way it would be allowed on safety grounds. We now have self-activating lights, wipers, mirrors to reduce the times it is necessary to remove one hand from the steering wheel.

Peter Cavellini June 3, 2008 11:31 AM

having not driven new twin clutch systems yet i'm not in the position to comment,but if its quicker fine but are they durable?.I have heard that if it breaks whether new or used the cost for the replacement box might be depending on the age of the car, could be more than the cars worth!

reha June 9, 2008 8:29 PM

@Peter Cavellini  

it would have been necessary to respond to your extremely smart comments ("wanna say something on borat? first go get in one of those swim-suits and walk out on the street"), if giulivo72 had not already given the suitable answer.

Peter Cavellini June 27, 2008 6:27 PM

HEY REEEHAA!

All i'm saying is don't put salt on your food before tasting it,its try befire you buy for all of us,you would'nt go out and buy one on a mans word who you just met would you.I'M SORRY IF I OFFENDED YOU ,but please taste your food first (sorry for the metaphor- i like using them?)  

chrisso July 8, 2008 12:45 PM

not sure what all the fuss is about.  Driven a few VWs with DSG and 99% of the time it was left in Drive.  Most noticeable thing was that each one came with a slightly different issue - hesitant take-off from rest, clunks/jerks at low speed etc.

Clever technology but might as well just buy an auto.

chrisso July 8, 2008 12:45 PM

not sure what all the fuss is about.  Driven a few VWs with DSG and 99% of the time it was left in Drive.  Most noticeable thing was that each one came with a slightly different issue - hesitant take-off from rest, clunks/jerks at low speed etc.

Clever technology but might as well just buy an auto.

chrisso July 8, 2008 12:46 PM

not sure what all the fuss is about.  Driven a few VWs with DSG and 99% of the time it was left in Drive.  Most noticeable thing was that each one came with a slightly different issue - hesitant take-off from rest, clunks/jerks at low speed etc.

Clever technology but might as well just buy an auto.

chrisso July 8, 2008 12:46 PM

not sure what all the fuss is about.  Driven a few VWs with DSG and 99% of the time it was left in Drive.  Most noticeable thing was that each one came with a slightly different issue - hesitant take-off from rest, clunks/jerks at low speed etc.

Clever technology but might as well just buy an auto.

hurricaneone July 23, 2008 12:25 PM

Chrisso, it was great once - four times and it gets a bit tedious.

I tried the SST and liked it a lot, much better than some other similar offering. I think it comes down to different strokes, folks, but Mitsu should offer a manual with the same car, just to cover all the bases.

FORPAWS August 24, 2008 6:43 PM

PURELY AS A MATTER OF  INTEREST................. WE HAVE TWO  MITSIBSHI SPACE WAGGONS  WITH    2.4  GDI       PETROLS   FITTED  TO THEIR  4 SPEED AUTO BOX,,,,,,,,,,, A FINER COMBINATION OF  POWER  /// TRANSMISSION UNITS WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO FIND  ..

stevied September 19, 2008 4:50 PM

This is quite an interesting objection to he recent influx of DSG models. I've been living in Japan for nearly ten years and have owned two cars here - a Toyota Celica (auto - sorry!) and now a Subaru Legacy B4 RSK (unavailable for the domestic UK market). After the Celica I decided I wanted to go back to "good old manual", to be a "real" driver. Harder here because auto is the norm for everything...

I really wanted a Legacy, and was searching for a manual - but during my research I realised that all the B4 RSKs (ie. up until 2002ish, when "RSK" model stopped) had the facility to switch the gear lever across into a "manual" gate to shift up and down, also with steering-wheel buttons. Suddenly this seemed like a great compromise. When I finally got my hands on one last year, I was not disappointed. Although the "manual" mode is only 4-speed, it gives just enough driver satisfaction when needed for overtaking, etc. With a twin-turbo engine, and 280 bhp, even the normal auto mode  is quite torquey, but it is good to switch to "manual" now and again just to feel like I'm not "cheating" and letting the car do all the work!

To be honest, I wouldn't go back now, I think. If you have a car that has some oomph, I reckon the DSG is the way to go.

The interesting thing for me is that my Legacy is ten years old...so I was intrigued when all these DSG models came out in Europe suddenly.

Why go back to manual? Hard work for limited returns (especially if you are driving in the town).

tommallett October 2, 2008 12:10 PM

I have to agree with mr McIlroy, although the sst gearbox is a bad example as it is (in my opinion) a poor version of the venerable double clutch gearbox.

I just do not find it satisfying to drive cars with DSG, they take some involvement out of the car. More so thean a F1 style box which still makes you think about driving. They are not even that smooth in my opinion, when pulling off the line they are not great and i find the way the revs change so suddenly when changing gear not entirely pleasant.

Personally, the criticisms of the lp560 gearbox are for me a plus point as it still allows the right foot to have some influence on the gear change. In turn this allows one to derive pleasure at a lower speed than in a GTR. This can only be a good thing on public roads.

underdog October 20, 2008 7:16 PM

Please keep it up in the hope that manufacturers listen and keep their 3 pedal manual offerings going. Having tried several paddle shift gearboxes they are always ultimately less than satisfying to drive than a proper manual car. Worse still too many manufacturers have decided that manual cars are no longer an option which  smacks of engineering arrogance and a lack of market awareness - Jaguar and Mercedes for example. Just imagine what fun an XKR with a manual box would be?

For me its just a gimmick and the quicker this one shuffles of its mortal coil, the better.

chebby January 28, 2009 7:23 PM

"We now have self-activating lights, wipers, mirrors to reduce the times it is necessary to remove one hand from the steering wheel."

More like 'reduce the time it is necessary to put down the phone/Wii/Blackberry/Latte/iPod and concentrate on the road'.

TOD1888 January 29, 2009 5:24 PM

People that actually buy cars, usually try the manual and then the DSG/ Robotised manual if this format appeals to them. After doing so they pick one , leave people alone to make there own mind up.

TOD1888 January 29, 2009 5:24 PM

People that actually buy cars, usually try the manual and then the DSG/ Robotised manual if this format appeals to them. After doing so they pick one , leave people alone to make there own mind up.

redbarron February 16, 2009 2:20 PM

For what it's worth I bought an Audi TT 3.2 with DSG a couple of years ago and it is the best gearbox ever - you can leave it in auto mode and relax or go bonkers in sport auto or manual. It is an ideal combination. My wife loves it as well. The launch control mode is unbelievable (and you can repeat it all day long if you want to - try doing that in any manual). I have never experienced any problems with jerkiness around town or any of the other issues sometimes mentioned, and eveyone who drives the car loves it. When it is time to change cars it will definitely be another DSG (but maybe a bit more economical!).

fellwalker February 24, 2009 9:52 PM

I've got a DSG. It is brilliant.  It has never stalled, which i sometimes did with manual. Its never over-revved, never missed a gear change.  I had half a dozen ordinary autos over 10 years before that, which were OK, but felt soft.  Prior to that I'd had 20 years of manual boxes.  I was glad to change, and overjoyed with the DSG.  

redbarron - I find you can leave it in auto mode and still go bonkers.  Mines only a Skoda Octavia 2.0TDI DSG but it is extremely rare anyone can keep up.

chrisso July 16, 2009 8:31 AM

I'm no Luddite but I can't really get the purpose of twin clutch 'boxes.  Driven a variety of DSG cars and while nice enough, didn't seem worth all the expense and complication.

We've got manual boxes and efficient, reliable autos - what do the twin clutch efforts really bring to the party?  Must be missing something.

Sacto8221 August 30, 2009 12:55 PM

While a real manual may be a lot of fun, people soon realize that unless you're driving a BMW, Honda or Porsche, most manual gearboxes are actually not as good as you think. The biggest problem with manuals nowadays is that very few companies bother to develop a decent shifter--many of them have a "rubbery" feel that makes it difficult to engage the right gear.

With the dual-clutch gearbox, the shifting between gears is very fast, especially with the improvements in dual-clutch technology in the last few years. Porsche's amazing PDK gearbox shows you can build a dual-clutch gearbox that leaves most manuals behind in terms of shift quality between gears.

Nikonguy September 11, 2009 4:36 PM

Hear hear Lusso, some one who realises twin clutches are the new breed.  It makes sense for road cars as much as F1 cars. Gear changing is so much quicker and better than the old type gear change, I wouldnt go back to them.

Yes Chrisso, your still a luddite. DSG gearboxes are the new breed and much better for it. They more efficient.  The only thing uour missing is not having a car fitted with it.

Charliemac November 5, 2009 5:12 PM

The real madness is that idiot journalists like Mr McIlroy continue to perpitrate the "manual myth". Here's the reality, it's 19th century technology, it is irrelevant for most people's driving experience today and even most competition vehicles now have some form of semi-automatic transmission.

Twin Clutch is the future but some automotive dinosaurs still cling to the past. I bet they are secretly unhappy about electric starting and crave the return of the starting handle!

dennisthemenance November 26, 2009 4:32 PM

You just have to live with the advancement of technology. Like it or not robotised gearbox is here to stay & for good. Even Ferrari is not going to offer manual on their 458 Italia. Unless you go track racing, robotised gearbox is still more useful in general usage. Also as I age, I find manual a bit tiring & cumbersome. IMO, DSG, SST, DCT, PDK & what have you are the way to go!!

Challenger440 December 6, 2009 5:18 PM

Firmly in the manual camp - and I'll go one further and say that 6 gears are too many - the ideal number of gears in a car fired by a petrol internal combustion engine and which operates in normlal traffic and real world speeds (<100mph) is 5.   I want them evenly stacked and I want to be hitting ~6000rpm in top at 120.   That's all you need.

noluddite December 18, 2009 9:45 AM

Just had my first experience of DSG, in a VW, and I'm not an unreserved fan. It's not as good as a torque-converter in some respects, most notably slow speed manouvres, where it's a little unpredictable and has almost caused a few parking knocks. In my auto, a gentle prod on the right pedal results in a progressive creep. In the VW, the result is nothing, nothing, more nothing, a hint of movement, and then suddenly - it's whoa big fella! However, this may be a throttle progression issue rather than the auto's fault. In other respects it's fairly similar. Where I assume it scores is in manufacturing costs, and efficiency, and for these reasons I can see it becoming popular.

3Deuce27 January 12, 2010 6:32 PM

Seventeen years now of delightful 'manual' shifting in my 93' Miata, plus no repairs, or replacement clutch or release bearing in 147.000 miles.  How many automatics or DSG's or STT's can manage that.

3Deuce27

Pauldalg January 18, 2010 4:19 PM

I've had two DSG/S-Tronic Audi A3s.

1st one was 140bhp TDI, it was an absolute delight. A memorable drive past Loch Ness in Sport but leaving it in Auto. I could only fault one gear selection in the entire 40 minute drive. Could not have been bettered.

2nd A3 170 bhp TDI - absolute nightmare. Would not take off consistently and smoothly. 4 attempts to get it fixed at dealer failed, so they gave me a very generous deal to get a new car (not DSG!). It was hopeless in choosing gears too, consistently choosing a higher gear than needed - probably linked to newer emissions regs.

After a time with each car I did miss the interaction of a manual though....

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