Fri
Feb 05 2010

Toyota problems? Driver problems!

Steve Cropley
That habitual harbinger of doom, the Daily Mail, has finally pushed me over the edge.

I hate the fact that this paper (which makes a speciality of fuelling our anxieties) has taken to encouraging Toyota owners not to drive their cars, apparently because their lives are at risk.



I’ve rarely heard such twaddle. The clear inference is that the recalled cars have been incompetently built, whereas the reverse is true. Today’s cars — especially Toyotas — are made with better attention to quality, safety and durability than ever before. But they’ll never be perfect.

There’s an argument that says some fault lies with the operators. Despite the increasing complexity today’s cars — a response to market demands — they have become extremely simple to operate.

The user no longer needs a scintilla of mechanical sympathy or technical awareness, to the extent that some drivers’ knowledge of what’s going on may well have fallen below a dangerous threshold.

If you were driving a car over some weeks, and its throttle return grew gradually weaker, would you, as a car-aware Autocar reader, drive on until it finally stuck open? Of course not.

You’d consult the dealer and do something about it. If your throttle did stick open, wouldn’t you know enough about a car’s mechanicals to declutch and get on the brakes? Well, of course you would.

But there are evidently people who know so little about driving that they’re incapable of making these connections. Should these people be put in charge of an alleged “lethal weapon” at all?

My feeling is that this controversy has been raging regardless of common sense. The sensible, obvious procedure for Toyota owners is clear: if your throttle isn’t returning slowly, you’re in no danger. Accept the recall if offered.

Meanwhile, drive happily onward (as we are doing in our iQ and Prius) and be strictly resolute about not reading the Daily Mail.

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About Steve Cropley

Road tester of 39 years and columnist of 20, Steve says he’s as much in love with cars today as he was on day one. “And not just the cars, but also the industry that makes ’em.”

Comments

John McToon February 5, 2010 10:43 AM

I am bound to say that I agree. I can't see how anyone could not safely bring a car to a halt even with the throttle stuck open nor that if there was something that would lead someone to believe that it was on its way to an episode like this that something ought to be done about it.

Blame culture personified. I do like the Daily Mail though. Very absorbent.

artill February 5, 2010 10:45 AM

I look forward to the day when a driving licence is only held by those with a very simple mechanical understanding. There will be no more congestion, speed limits can go up to a sensible level, and for those of us left, the pleasure of driving will return.

You are spot on Steve, But i doubt the Daily Mial reader would understand!

coolboy February 5, 2010 10:47 AM

duh!...

... I fear that nowdays a competent driver finds useless to throw away money with car magazines and...

by the way, cars now are much better, and we do not need to be an engineer too, they come with voice control, bluetooth conections, DVD players... remember! all this is absolutly needed...

next!

RacingPuma February 5, 2010 10:50 AM

Well said, Steve.  At last, a voice of sanity.  There have been many other recalls by other manufacturers for more risky "safety" issues, without this media frenzy.

I can't help thinking that the US authorities are milking this all they can (and the mainstream media are falling for it) to hide their other problems i.e. the rescues of GM, GMAC and Chrysler are in a disastrous state.

Is it really a coincidence that GMAC (the US state rescued former finance arm of GM) posted a $5 Billion quarterly loss yesterday, but the story was buried by the Toyota story?

TheWizardWeb February 5, 2010 10:51 AM

I'm not a fan of censorship but the Daily Mail, The Daily Express and the Red tops make a good case for it.

crashbangwallop February 5, 2010 10:51 AM

This is a very foolish article.  This issue has killed at least 19 people and there is now strong evidence of a software failure linked to failing brakes.  At least one fatal crash was a Lexus hire car - how is the driver to be made aware of a progressive problem?

Why not wait until you know what has happened before making statements that are worthy of the Daily Mail?

LP in Brighton February 5, 2010 10:52 AM

Couldn't agree more, and I can't help feeling sorry for Toyota that this has all happened in a "slow news week".

Time was when cars had design faults which caused wheels to fall off, and no-one did a thing. Of course this was equally wrong, but things have swung way too far in the opposite direction.

If Toyota is to be penalised for a few sticking throttle pedals, then where will it stop. Almost every old car with a cam belt has the potential for the engine to die at any time (much more dangerous than a sticky throttle), yet we all accept this as an unlikely event.  Same applies to tyres which get punctures, and coil springs which seem to be failing with monotonous regularity these days.  

Lee23404 February 5, 2010 11:10 AM

I'm not a Daily Mail reader but the quote "Don't drive your Toyota" is paraphrased from a quote by the US transport secretary who said more or less the same thing - stop driving it and take it to your dealer. Is that not just news reporting?

Good advice I'd say given the 19 deaths and numerous reported incidents, more of which are being reported all the time, including in this country now.

trocadero February 5, 2010 11:36 AM

crashbangwallop, I suspect Steve Cropley is better informed than the Daily Mail journalists.

I have a Toyota Avensis, the potential problem with the floor mats was cured by me in 2 minutes with a pair of scissors.

The sticking accelerator pedal is in the process of being resolved.

Drivers are responsible for their own actions and, if they feel their car has a problem, they should take it to the dealer before recall paperwork arrives.

Ordy February 5, 2010 11:37 AM

What about the Lexus driver on the American freeway who had time to phone 911 when his throttle stuck? The recording has been played on TV and is on You Tube, where there are a lot of crass, uninformed comments. Sadly, the driver died.

Is it possible that a powerful engine can overcome the available braking at speed and is it possible that a top spec Lexus Auto has electronic safeguards to stop it being knocked into ‘N’ with an open throttle? Would it be possible to turn off the ignition? I guess the steering lock would not engage within a few degrees of straight ahead?

Does anyone know the facts?

ordinary bloke February 5, 2010 11:40 AM

The voice of sanity at last, well said Mr Cropley. I've seen the reports of 19 deaths being quoted everywhere but no-one has actually ever given any more details than the bald statement "there have been 19 deaths" - have there really or is this just hearsay? This situation needs a bit of common sense applied to it, andwe need more people putting the sensible approach rather than the near hysteria of papers like the Mail etc. Keep up the good work, CAR.

ThwartedEfforts February 5, 2010 11:53 AM

what's most dangerous of all is your stance here, Mr Cropley. You forget that many of Toyota's U.S. models recalled are 'auto only' (e.g. Sequoia, Highlander) and that the remainder (e.g. Camry) will have auto as an option anyway.

In a panic situation, most drivers are not going to let go of the wheel and wrestle a lever into 'N' before the car runs away from them. Particularly as throttles don't always jam on a dead straight empty road, and particularly as modern automatics encourage drivers to shunt the lever down and across into 'manual mode' - the route back to 'N' from there is often a tortuous one.

On my journey to work this morning in a CL500 had my throttle jammed at an inopportune moment - at a crossroads, entering a busy roundabout, being a hero on an S-bend - I would have eaten airbag. Basically it's far too early to be accusing victims of this problem of being stupid.

Old Toad February 5, 2010 11:55 AM

Ok this is serious as peolpe have died and my condolences to the relatives.

However I do feel what started as gleeful US "Jap Crap " bashing has now crossed the channel. Everybody seems to have forgotten about Chryslers people carriers that had the worst crash saftey protection tested etc oh and what about the rollover Ford Explorers. Far more dangerous and serious in my book.

Unless I am mistaken all cars have a stop start button or an ignition switch but can also appreciate that some older and maybe female drivers may panic and have an accident.

So overall Toyota is correct to make the recalls but the Toyota bashing does smack of Nationalistic fuelled hysteria to me.

RacingPuma February 5, 2010 12:15 PM

The "Jap Bashing" by the US seems particularly inappropriate as the throtle pedals concerned are made by a US company (CTS),  which also supplies many other manufacturers.  It is estimated that CTS has 16% of the world throttle pedal market

artill February 5, 2010 12:28 PM

For those of you attacking steves position here, please learn how your car works! If you dont have a clutch, you will have a brake pedal. You also have some sort of ignition switch. Probably a key, or a button. I doubt there is a car out there you cant stop if the throttle sticks.

sco1 February 5, 2010 12:30 PM

Problem with Toyota and the reason why it the issue has escalated, was not the fault itself (it could happen to any manufacturer), as such, but the way it was handled and the alleged inability, in certain circumstances, to stop the car. If Internet sources are to be believed, first, Toyota was in denial and the matter got investigated in the US by the press in order to emerge that in fact there was a problem with sticking accelerators. The admission came very late. The inferences from such behaviour is for anyone to make. On top of that, there are allegations that the matter was never properly investigated (before the press intervened) for dubious reasons. Again these are mere  allegations in the press but were not proven. Nonetheless, these are the events that actually provoked the outrage, and the investigations . Finally, it is the grave issue that apparently, as it is alleged, it was not possible to actually stop the car, at least not in such an easy way that a person who is panicking seeing his car unreleentlessly and in explicably accelerate. The comment to "declutch" is naive within the context, since (especially if we are talking of the US market) a lot of cars are auto, and in certain cases ONLY auto. In case of an automatic car, since most of them now are electronic and there is no direct link with gearbox, just because you "shift" into neutral, does not mean it will obey such a command if the car is accelerating hard. Secondly, it is alleged that one of the failiures of the Toyota system is that there was no failsafe system (as it applies to other manufuctures, apparently and as reported), that if you hit the brakes, the (electronic) accelerator disengages by defauilt irrespective of pedal position. Thirdly,it is alleged that in the case of the fatal crash which sparked the investigation (see above), the car had a push button start/stop engine, which also failed to switch off. So it was not that the driver did not try. Problem  was serious and fatal. Throttle was stuck for a long period (not mementarily), brakes did not overide throttle (as it should be), and engine could not be switched off. Anyone can be an easy judge from the comfort of his armchair (or keyboard..) but if it happens to you, you may not have time to react. It did happen to me once (due to my own fault - did not replace the floor mat fastenings and the mat kept moving), and when I pressed hard for kickdown, it got stuck, in trafic. Experience is allarming. You do not realise at first what is going on and at this stage by the time you react you may still crash. I pressed on the brakes which worked, but did not cut out throttle fully, and as soon as i released them, it accelerated again. I slammed the auto lever (still mechanically attached at the time....) into N and with a big bang the car shifted into N and engine reved to the limiter. Pulled to the side and switched off. It was only then that I found out what the problem was.

SDR February 5, 2010 12:31 PM

Fully agree Steve.  

Frankly the untimely passing of anyone too stupid to declutch, or 'wrestle' (eh?!?!?) the auto selector into neutral (always possible in any auto - the transmission is never locked in drive) under these circumstances is just natural selection at work.  It is dangerous indeed that so many people are so chronically ignorant of the machines they're piloting that they can't make a few logical deductions to manage these situations.

I also find the hysteria around the issue extremely distateful and very obviously self-serving in the US - given the choice between a 4 year old Toyota or a 4 year old Chrysler, whether from a safety point of view or any other, I know what I'd rather drive.  I'm sure the lengths to which Toyota go in order to ensure quality componentry far exceed the efforts of many other manufacturers, but it seems this time they've been unlucky.  

Oh, and nice shot at the Daily Fascist by the way - paper's a disgrace.  Who made those pedals anyway?  Damned foreigners...

Lanciaman February 5, 2010 12:39 PM

I`m sorry, Steve, but you are talking twaddle. Do you have to have a degree in computing to use a computer or be a plumber before you are allowed to turn on a tap? No. I hate the modern nanny State/elf n safety culture as much as anyone, but a throttle pedal that sticks open (if that`s what`s happening) is a fairly frightening fault. Anyone`s granny is allowed a few seconds panic if her car shoots off at unabated speed when she lifts off.

Granted, anybody who carries on for miles without simply turning off the engine is a twit, but that doesn`t mean it isn`t a serious problem that needs rectifying, which is all the Daily Mail was reporting.

SDR February 5, 2010 12:41 PM

Just read sco1's post - I will qualify my last comment.  I am certain no auto shift lever is locked into drive, but I accept that modern shifts are electronically linked, not mechanically linked, so I can conceive that there may be an issue there though again, in my experience the 'box will still shift into neutral as commanded, even when accelerating (I recall doing this by accident in a Q7 only a few weeks ago!).  The fault in this case is purely mechanical, nothing to do with electronics, so it seems reasonable to assume any auto gearbox involved in these situations was behaving normally.  Therefore this is very easy to test - Steve, or anyone else feeling brave - all we need is a recent auto Toyota/Lexus, under acceleration, shifted from drive into auto.  If it behaves like an Audi it will change, there will no longer be drive, and the car can be safely stopped.  If the design means it will not shift into neutral under acceleration I will be a) amazed, b) wrong, and c) forced to adopt a much lower opinion of Toyota's engineering common sense.  Come on somebody - find out!

Oh and also - hate those stop/start buttons, utterly absurd and I'm sure unhelpful in this type of situation.  that said though, providing the 'box shifts into neutral, it matters not.

SDR February 5, 2010 12:42 PM

Duh - shifted from drive into neutral*

ThwartedEfforts February 5, 2010 12:44 PM

there is an assumption here that a stuck-on throttle is an easy and instant situation to get out of. Well, imagine a rush hour roundabout or a pedestrian crossing outside a school and tell me if you'd wear the risk we're talking about.

In addition Toyota's keyless system fitted as standard to most of the recalled models requires you to hold down the start/stop button for a full three seconds to kill the engine while the car is in motion. From the LA Times:

"Toyota has blamed the San Diego accident on a floor mat that trapped the accelerator pedal. But a September memorandum by investigators for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also identified the Lexus' push-button ignition as one of the 'significant factors' in the crash and noted that 'there was no ignition key' that could shut down the engine or warning label on the power button to explain how to shut off the engine."

articles.latimes.com/.../la-fi-carkeys24-2010jan24

Who knew that's how it worked? And there you have your answer.

catnip February 5, 2010 12:51 PM

Are todays cars increasingly complex due to market demands?

Or is it the manufacturers who are fuelling this demand?

SDR February 5, 2010 12:56 PM

Thwarted - to an extent I take your point - however what sort of a throttle opening would you expect to have at a rush hour roundabout or, even more so, outside a school?  Certainly for me at least, nothing even remotely extreme enough to overpower the brakes (still assuming I wasn't able to think about declutching or shifting into neutral).

I hate the on/off button and I'm not keen to defend it, but if I did have the misfortune of having such a thing I would certainly have read the manual to understand how it works and I think any driver has a responsibility to do the same.  If this 'feature' is not mentioned in the manual, that's poor.  If it is and the driver just chose not to read it, they have some responsibility.

supermanuel February 5, 2010 1:09 PM

What a bunch of self-righteous, hypocritical, b0770cks. As all the dead so far have been Americans you are happy to assume that they were all idiots who couldn't drive. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Glass houses and all that?

rtwingo February 5, 2010 1:11 PM

Finally some words of reason in all the mambo-jambo! Thanks Steve Cropley :-)

supermanuel February 5, 2010 1:13 PM

I wonder how fast you'd all react to your car accelerating of it's own accord while you were doing 70 mph down a motorway. With no key to turn the ignition off? With an auto box that refuses to budge because it's designed not to?

disco.stu February 5, 2010 1:31 PM

A lot of good points on all sides.  Mr Cropley is right that poor driving standards must have contributed some of the problem, if not as much as Toyota, for the deaths that have occurred.  I don't know of any car that can't be knocked into neutral fairly easily.  Between that, braking and switching off the ignition, it should be possible to slow a runaway car, even if you can't completely stop it before engaging the scenery.

However, the point that a car may start to accelerate at a less opportune time is also valid, as is the point that if it is a rental car you may not have been aware of the state of the throttle return before it was too late.

I think that Toyota is copping more of a bashing than they deserve by others with various agendas, but they do need to get a move on and repair their cars and their reputation.

Maybe Timo Glock's crash in Japan last year was actually because his throttle stuck open on the final corner... ;)

Inos68 February 5, 2010 1:38 PM

mmmmmmh, Steve I'm not sure u'rite...

ThwartedEfforts February 5, 2010 1:50 PM

SDR: I can see you're doing your best to duck the most obvious point here. Comparing throttle openings when every one of us has at one time or another jumped on the gas at a busy junction, at a familiar set of traffic lights, when merging, in annoyance after having to wait, etc etc will take this discussion nowhere but round in pointless circles. We all use full throttle, it doesn't matter where.

The only fact you need to appreciate is that a car which remains accelerating hard after you've taken your foot from the pedal will alarm ALL drivers and will panic MOST of them. It's that simple. When you have panicked drivers not knowing what to do next (particularly older drivers, or mothers instantly fearful for the kid strapped into a seat behind them, not to mention all the superhero forum dwellers who like me had no idea you had to hold Toyota's keyless start button for 3 seconds to stop) then the likelihood of a serious accident shoots up.

If there was no risk of a serious accident there would be no fuss.

ACCobra427 February 5, 2010 1:52 PM

Well said.

A majority of people seem to be getting more and more retarded with every generation and disengaging with technology and common sense.

To make my point, a friend of mine is a TV producer.  His wife has a Mini, she is in PR.  Both have good University degrees.   The car ran out of windscreen wash and so the light bulb on the indicator stalk (indicating low washer level) was flashing...for weeks, and they couldn't figure out why.  So they took it to a dealer 'to get it repaired'.

Whatever happened to evolution and survival of the fittest?  At this rate, in 10,000 years we would have devolved back in to the oceans.

SDR February 5, 2010 2:04 PM

Thwarted - and I think you're missing the obvious point that all the 'fuss' is entirely due to irresponsible elements of the media enjoying nothing more than a good scare story, and self-interest in the US in focusing attention on these lethal evil foreign cars when their home-grown industry is a very expensive mess.  

I know several Toyota drivers and while none of them are thrilled at this turn of events, none of them are trembling with fear at the "risk of serious accident" either.  To state another obvious point, 19 accidents globally out of several million cars is a drop in the ocean, and there are much greater risks to all of us every time we step into a car than a few rogue throttle pedals which I still maintain any intelligent and averagely skilled driver should be able to outwit sometime before death.

Anyway, I think this has rather run its course...

ThwartedEfforts February 5, 2010 2:16 PM

Actually SDR, your point was the incredible assumption that any caught-out driver was "chronically ignorant" and that a resulting death merely "natural selection". You then (somewhat incongruously) described the Daily Mail as the "Daily Fascist" and yet I wonder, how long have you been writing for them?

Drivers are a wide ranging bunch, from grandmothers to P-plated 17 year old kids. If you're happy that your mum or your eldest born is capable of dealing with a stuck wide open throttle and/or be satisfied their funeral would be the result of "chronic ignorance" then I'm happy that I'm not able to change your mind about it.

That's me done here. Honestly.

Peter Cavellini February 5, 2010 2:30 PM

couldn't agree more, even Auntie BEEB(the BBC)shoewd on the one o'clock news what to do if these failures occured while driving!

sportwagon February 5, 2010 2:50 PM

This is just another example of the dangers of over-complicated cars relying on just adding electronics that can't be over-ridden, just to save a couple of carbons and appease the tree-huggers. no doubt the same argument is put forward to justify electric power steering systems that need to have artificial 'feel' added. The Prius brakes seem to be another example. If the fault can be cured by only modifying some software, then something must be seriously wrong with the whole design philosophy.

Designers must get back to designing cars and components (not systems) that either fail safe or can be over-ridden safely by an inexperienced driver. Safety must become before EVERYTHING else.

Lee23404 February 5, 2010 2:53 PM

SDR - There have not been 19 accidents there have been 19 (reported) deaths. There have been many more accidents and more are being reported all the time. What seemed like 'one off's' are now being linked to this problem, a problem which it would appear has now been going on for some time with little action from Toyota.

There have been some OTT headlines but the main difference between this and other instances in the past, like the Ford Explorer 'problem' with tyres and cruise control is the number of deaths, the massive number of cars involved (they've even panaged to get PSA involved) and the apparent slow reaction/lack of action from Toyota.

I wonder if there hadn't been a massive media outcry in the states would Yoyota have done anything at all or just continued to blame the floor mats?

crashbangwallop February 5, 2010 3:14 PM

Trocadero

Steve is journalist, just like his collegues from the Daily Mail. I am a computer scientist with a doctorate and 30 years expertise in systems development. To blame the drivers without knowing the full facts is worthy of any of our many dreadful newspapers and magazines.  Toyota has admitted software problems as well as sticking accelerators.  You can't turn of the engine on a modern car without losing brakes and potentially locking the steering.  Going into neutral on a motorway is not a particularly clever idea.  Therefore my point is this article is poorly thought out and an example of rushing to blame in this case the drivers, before the facts are fully known.

kdwilcox February 5, 2010 3:54 PM

Sorry Steve,you are wrong,very wrong.

At this time the full facts are not known,

untill they are both you and the Daily Mail

should keep your big mouths shut.

Also remember people died,so lets wait

and see,journalists,there are times when

i wonder!

noluddite February 5, 2010 4:25 PM

I read yesterday that our own government has provided leadership on this matter by grounding its fleet of 10 Avensi used for transporting junior ministers. Can we blame the public if our government sets such a pathetic example? After all, would anyone notice if we lost a few junior ministers?

godders75 February 5, 2010 4:26 PM

Ahhh the Daily Mail, Croppers et all you will love this: www.facebook.com/group.php.

I hope no more people have any Toyota related problems, let alone have to read the Daily Mail.

trocadero February 5, 2010 4:43 PM

Professor (?) crashbangwallop

Re your post on here at 3:14 PM

Do not patronise people. I have worked in the automotive development and supply industry for over 30 years.

I have just tested my Avensis, 5 months old and automatic on a quiet road.

If you knock the selector into neutral whilst accelerating the box goes into neutral.

If you turn the engine off, with a press button, the engine cuts out and the steering and brakes still work.

Since one Toyota auto does this, I presume others do as well, including Lexus.

As shown on BBC television news, in a manual Vauxhall Astra, turn the key one notch but do not remove it and the engine will stop. No power assistance so  steering and the brakes are a bit heavier, but the car stopped.

I fear you and others are over reacting in the extreme.

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 5:01 PM

I can't believe some of the comments here.

A car is a dangerous weapon, if you don't know how to operate it you shouldn't.

As has been said, apply the brakes HARD or knock it into Neutral (which can be done).

From what I understand the Lexus problem is due to slipping mats (supposedly overmats on top of the Lexus mats) so is totally disconnected from the detectable Toyota problem.

I've had jammed throttles on a Mondeo and Peugeot but handled it fine, cause slipped mats.

If those of you who don't want to engage your brains or understand how things work would like to sell your cars there are lots of us with brains who do.  

Perhaps one of you is the person who supposedly complained his IT dept that his mouse was in the wrong place, only for the technician to come down and lift it from the left of the keyboard to the right.

Lee23404 February 5, 2010 5:26 PM

Mondeo Owner - I think that you should engage your brain and do some research first.

The family that died in the Lexus did so because the throttle jammed open, not because of slipping mats. The car could not be turned off because it had keyless go (on off button) and nobody at the time seemed to know that it had to be held in for several seconds to turn the engine off. The brakes would not slow it down.

The driver in question may not have been a driving god like yourself but he was a California Highway patrolman, so an experienced driver you'd think, no?

Sadly not everybody is as perfect as yourself which is why we expect our cars to be safe and fit for purpose. As Thwarted Efforts has already said, there are many instances where a throttle stuck open could easily and very quickly result in a fatal accident.

beachland2 February 5, 2010 5:33 PM

Supermanual:

"I wonder how fast you'd all react to your car accelerating of it's own accord while you were doing 70 mph down a motorway. With no key to turn the ignition off? With an auto box that refuses to budge because it's designed not to?"

Only stupid people would drive a car with an ignition that cant be turned off and a box that prevents you selecting neutral.

It's a basic rule of safety that there is always a kill switch.

theop February 5, 2010 5:43 PM

definition of a storm in a teacup , innit? And American idiocy..

Seriously, is there a more stupid and naive nation in the world? jeez....

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 5:55 PM

Lee-my research indicates sticking mats, I'll look for jammed throttles and if I'm wrong I'm sorry.

I am no driving god but I do have common sense, a substance becoming a rarer commodity.

On my drive home I'll double check how much the brakes slow the car when travelling at speed but previous experience of braking under throttle is that the brakes won.

At risk of causing more upset I thought Sniff petrol summed up the hysteria well www.sniffpetrol.com

supermanuel February 5, 2010 6:01 PM

@beachland2

So you're saying that Toyota owners are stupid people then? Just so we're clear.

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 6:08 PM

Lee. According to the Sheriffs report the mats were indicated as a factor. The model had already been cited for this problem. Other factors could not be ruled out but nothing had been proven.

crashbangwallop February 5, 2010 6:10 PM

Trocadero

I am not patronising you and I'm not a professor, just a doctor of computer science.  However you haven't picked up my point.  The article implies driver error without knowing the facts.  Toyota are not issuing a massive recall for no reason and there may yet be software faults.  I think this is lazy journalism and your points about a test on your own car don't stand up to a view that if your Avensis does this, then all Toyota's behave the same - including when they seem to have major faults.

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 6:10 PM

Lee. According to the sheriffs report the mats were cited as a factor in the incident.

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 6:12 PM

Lee. According to the Sheriffs report the mats were cited as a factor

Lee23404 February 5, 2010 6:16 PM

Mondeo Owner - Can I also suggest that you take a listed to the 911 call made by a passenger in the Lexus shortly before it crashed.

There is clearly a big difference between the throttle jamming in a Lexus which is an automatic and crammed full of electronics and the same thing happening in a manual Aygo which can be knocked in to neutral or turned off with the key. In that case, most of the time your common sense approach is valid -  as long as one has the space to knock it in to neutral and doesn't panic. I'm sure the brakes will also stop an Aygo but a big Lexus with the throttle wide open, I'm not so sure.

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 6:18 PM

I obviously can't operate a blackberry safely.

I think the issue is the linking by the mass media of an unconnected incident with a genuine recall due to a product deficiency.

Mondeo Owner February 5, 2010 6:26 PM

Thanks lee, I've heard the end but will listen from the beginning. I run a BMW 328 auto  so testing that tonight will be closer to the Lexus, I've only braked at 70 ish with the throttle down (to trigger brake lights when being tailgated, not sensible I'd agree) and not under full throttle so it will be an interesting experiment.

Lee23404 February 5, 2010 6:28 PM

Mondeo owner - I apologise, i have read recently (can't remember where) that it was caused by the throttle. The cause is inconclusive which is not surprising given what little is left of the car.

Wholigan February 5, 2010 6:44 PM

Steve Cropley, trocadero and Mondeo Owner are completely right: there's no excuse for not knowing how to operate your vehicle. It's the reason they're sold with handbooks. Yes, it may be bl00dy boring to read, but it's worth being bored for a few minutes if knowing how to switch off your engine could save your life. Thanks to trocadero we know you can shift an accelerating auto into neutral, so enough with the mythical BS about not being able to do so.

And please, can we stop defending the Daily Mail? Anyone who admits to reading it should be banned from autocar.co.uk.

kdwilcox February 5, 2010 7:23 PM

So,Wholigan,over 2million people should be

banned from the Autocar webb site?.

By the way which paper do you read?.

goodcarlover February 5, 2010 7:29 PM

wouldent totally agree with steve on this,I think any given problem is dependant on the situation your in,for example if your throttle jammed open at say 80 mph on a motorway you would probally have time to knock it out of gear, brake and coast with hazards on to the hard shoulder quite safely....now if you were say aproaching a fast bend on a A road with deer or some sort of unexpected hazard when this happens things could be very different, if you were not quick enough.once had an old granada which decided to throw up the bonnet at 60 mph which completly embeded against  the now broken windscreen by the force of the air which had lifted it clean up ,the bonnet latch failed to hold it!!! made me jump ill say, i could not see a bloody thing,but luckily managed to stop safely...as for the daily mail and the like i do not read them at all, all they do is make up the most stupid headlines and trival stories to feed the media driven world we live in now....god knows what they would print if we had more than a foot of snow!!!! someone tell the idiots its winter and yes from time to time we get lots of the white stuff....our parents and grandparents have seen it all before!!!!!they just got on with things.....doh.

MrTrilby February 5, 2010 8:14 PM

Whilst it's sad that 19 people have died to date, it seems a massive over-reaction to recommend that you avoid driving a Toyota until it's recalled. Around 30 car occupants a week die in the UK, yet I suspect a recommendation to avoid getting in any car full stop would be treated with the derision it deserves.

Rover P6 3500S February 5, 2010 9:01 PM

Can I just say that in the case of the Lexus crash - the rebadged Camry they won't let us have over here - they had an auto, found the gear selector jammed, hitting the brakes had no effect, and it had keyless start and refused to switch off while in motion. Therefore, the fault lies with Toyota, not the driver (in that particular case). Sure, if your throttle felt weird, you'd pull over and either sort it yourself or get someone else to, but if the problem develops suddenly (as I believe it has in some cases), there's not a lot you can do.

Will86 February 5, 2010 9:08 PM

Toyota need to get the recall under way and then ditch as much media contact and advertising as possible and sit quiet for a few months. This will blow over and be forgotten soon enough. The media will find something else to sink their teeth into.

beachland2 February 5, 2010 9:17 PM

How do you know the gear selector jammed in the lexus?

also i thought the keyless ignition toyotas have a power off button, toyota have said you can use it.

Anyway as i have said before i think anyone who drives anycar that cant be turned off is a fool.

reidbrand February 5, 2010 9:26 PM

What's so amazing about this so called Toyota problem is I have not read over the last 5yrs.any auto magazineor newspaper auto sections road tests noting any problem with the gas pedal I have rented a few Toyotas over the years in Nevada and N.California where I literally thrashed the daylights out of them .The first time I heard about this was in the fall when a policeman (off duty)and his families Toyota excelerated to 120mph.and crashed not having the sense to put it into neutral.It kind of took me back to the big Chevy caprices equipped with ABS brakes.U.S. police forces were having lot's of accidents with these cars the BOGEY MAN was ABS.brakes.I had a 1991 Caprice it was a rock solid car.Every Toyota accident will now be blamed on the gas pedal.

Mini1 February 5, 2010 10:07 PM

Croply, I agree with you!!! I think the media have over-hyped the whole thing. My car thankfully isn't affected as it's an Aygo manual, but it still gets on my nerves the way the media have acted - you feel as if everyone is glaring at you thinking "that car's not safe to drive!!"

Mini1 February 5, 2010 10:14 PM

And the people who are saying "this is a serious problem and Steve is being disrespectful", yes, it is a serious matter, particular for the families of those who died. Steve is talking about the Daily Mail's stance - they're saying the cars aren't safe to drive. And they actually are. Just the Daily Mail being sensationalist as per usual.

Mini1 February 5, 2010 10:17 PM

Lee23404 - the manual Aygo isn't actually affected according to Toyota. :) I think the automatic model uses a different accelerator, hence the recall on that particular Aygo.

fhp11 February 6, 2010 1:10 AM

To those who say theres no excuse for not knowing how your car works - when was the last time you had a rental car and read the manual cover to cover?

Granted, teh media hype is what it is, its the same for everything.

But its a serious problem none the less. Its too simplistic just to say that you should know how to shut your car down , there are too many variables - and in an emergency situation where there are only perhaps a couple of seconds to react, I bet most people would struggle to remain calm and be able to bring everything under control.

SF695 February 6, 2010 1:41 AM

Any car, that being manual or automatic, has the option to pacify the engine. Meaning clutching it out.

Anyone holding a drivers license should know how that is done. Panic or no panic, it's part of basic drivers skills.

Rich boy spanners February 6, 2010 8:29 AM

Don't be too cynical of the drivers that crashed. I've had throttles jam on two cars on busy fast motorways, a VW Polo (aftermarket mat slippage), and a Skoda Fabia vRS (the pretend metal accelerator pedal cover came off and jammed between the pedal and structure). Don't underestimate how quickly a car can accelerate. In both my cases it was fortunate that both vehicles were designed to drop fuel flow to the injectors when the brake pedal was pressed.

As for Toyota, I would have thought they'd do the same?? I have a Verso also and would hope so, but as a note on Toyota, the stop-start button is not an intuitive device, with a key you know to turn it back, pressing and holding a button above your knee is not the same.

Muppet Basher February 6, 2010 10:07 AM

There are now 5 reported accidents in Japan connected to the new Prius and a lack of braking power. Jeez, if Toyota didn't have bad luck they'd have no luck at all!

beachland2 February 6, 2010 12:22 PM

I had forgotten about the simple fact that pressing the brake will automatically disengage the accelerator , no matter how far the accelerator  is pressed. My VW lupo gti does this, and that was a model from 10 years ago when it came out. Dont all electronic accelerators have this function?

I would imagine sports cars dont as it prevents effective left foot braking.

I still blame the drivers, but there could also be electronic issues at fault, it could be possible that the recall will involve pedal repair and also a quick and subtle plug in to update the toyotas computer software.

The software being the much more important safety aspect rather than the peddle itself.

For as  said even if the accelerator pedal were to brake again the computer can tell the fuelling to cut out when the brake is pressed. So stupid drivers no longer have to comprehend how to manually shut down the car.

As for the comment about rental cars, it takes approximately 3 seconds for the company to verbally and physically show you where and how to turn the engine off.

sigh.....

never buy a clio February 6, 2010 2:20 PM

I don't have a Toyota, but my car when you have the accelerator down, and then put on the brakes, it also puts the traction control system killing most power to the engine. I also wonder about the brakes. I seem to remember that in the US they like their cars not to leave a brake powder residue (it affects their JD Power rating as customers don't like it), so maybe they use a harder compound which is not as effective? Although you'd hope it could still stop the damn thing!

sewa February 7, 2010 8:30 AM

'Car and driver' has tried to simulate the accident, i.e. they were trying to stop 3 different cars (Camry, Infiniti, Mustang) with the throttle engaged. Their results seem to confirm Steve's thoughts...however we can't be sure how that 'computer glitch' would affect other systems of a car.

You'll find the details under: www.caranddriver.com/.../how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

its an interesting read.

sewa  

sewa February 7, 2010 8:34 AM

..an interesting quote from the article above:

"Since the advent of electronic throttle control, many automakers have added software to program the throttle to close—and therefore cut power—when the brakes are applied. Cars from BMW, Chrysler, Nissan/Infiniti, Porsche, and Volkswagen/Audi have this feature (...) As a result of the unintended-acceleration investigation, Toyota is adding this feature posthaste."

kdwilcox February 7, 2010 2:16 PM

Beachland 2.

'You still blame the drivers but there could also be electronic issues',i have to say,i find this a very odd thing to say.

At this time no one is 100% sure what the cause of the problem is,other than Toyota have got a big problem.

After people were killed for you to blame someone when we do not know the cause is way out of line!.

Untill we know the facts i think one and all should keep their big mouths shut!!!!.

beachland2 February 7, 2010 4:56 PM

I can still call them fools if they didnt know how to turn off the car. It doesnt matter whether it was a mechanical or electrical failure of the throttle, they still could have turned the engine off.

If they had run pedestrians over they would be legally responsible. They were in charge of the vehicle.

They took an irresponsible risk in driving the car without sufficient knowledge to be in control of it.

Greycop February 7, 2010 7:04 PM

Steve, greetings form South Africa.

I could not agree more with your article. You are on the dot.

However, could I throw a log on the fire?

I have a major honk with motor manufacturers in general. Modern vehicles, I believe under the guise of NCAP safety etc, are dumbing is down. The cars are treating us like idiots. A bing for your seatbelt not on, a ting for your lights left on, a bloody great siren when your fuel runs low.

How on earth have I survived this long without various annoying tones blared out to tell me I left my lights on?

Therefore, when there is the suggestion that drivers might not notice their bleeding accelerator pedal sticking, its because they didnt get a flashing light on the dashboard or an electric shock in the seat to tell them.

Manufacturers treat us like idiots under the umbrella of safety and we whine like spoilt children with big wide eyes when something goes wrong because we acted too stupid to notice it.

Great column. I look forward to more.

Uncle Mellow February 7, 2010 11:54 PM

I have used left foot braking in the past to get up an icy hill , ( to kill wheelspin) so if pressing the brake pedal cut the throttle I would be seriously pi**ed off. Needless to say , I am in no hurry at all to get a car with a drive-by-wire throttle. Since my right foot is no more than 24 inches from the intake manifold , this kind a technology is a waste of time.

Challenger440 February 8, 2010 12:07 AM

It's true - in the good old days you had to advance the ignition yourself while driving.  Once upon a time we didn't have ABS - you had to do something called "cadence braking".  For younger readers... there used be something called a "carburretor" and it had a thing called a "choke" that you had to pull out in the morning to get the car to start.  And there were things called 'points' that had be gapped correctly and other bits called  "tappets" which were adjusted using wee bits of steel called "shims".  And you could adjust the ignition timing using something called a "timing gun" - it was all good fun and when the car broke or didn't perfomr quite as you expected, you had some passing idea what might be wrong and how to fix it... now...   when something like a throttle jam occurs...  people are clueless about what to do.  Just as they are about driving the snow...

DG48 February 8, 2010 7:47 AM

beachland2:

"I can still call them fools if they didnt know how to turn off the car. It doesnt matter whether it was a mechanical or electrical failure of the throttle, they still could have turned the engine off.

If they had run pedestrians over they would be legally responsible. They were in charge of the vehicle.

They took an irresponsible risk in driving the car without sufficient knowledge to be in control of it."

I agree, the guy's right.

road runner February 8, 2010 9:34 AM

This issue is far bigger than you envisage. More and more claims and deaths will be attributed as time passes. A case in point is a friends sticky throttle pedal which caused an accident two years ago. He walked away from it. The car was totalled. Toyota at the time did not accept responsibility and put it down to driver error. The police report alluded to the possibility of "carpet jamming", but wasn't definitive. His insurance company adopted Toyota's stance, and his premiums went through the roof.

His case does not appear in Toyota's statistics and will now be re contested in court.

So Cropley, before trivializing this issue, would you care to estimate how many of this type of case exist out there?

Be a little more cautious with what you advise others to do, you are in a position of influencing drivers. This one may come up and bite you.

MattDB February 8, 2010 2:03 PM

I agree that many drivers have become sanitised to the mechanical feel of their cars, but surely if your throttle is jammed open, you can simply switch the car off, get it out of gear in a manual or put in neutral for an auto and litterally stand on the brakes and do an emergency stop.  I refuse to believe you cannot stop a car at all.  I have suffered brake failure on 1968 MGB and also a jammed throttle in a transit van and I safely brought both vehicles to a halt.  (I just went a bit grey in the process!!)

Shadow101 February 8, 2010 2:04 PM

And the conclusion to all this comment? As both an Autocar and Daily Mail reader I accept that both can be flawed on occcasions when making statements about a new item.

As someone who has worked in the motor industry for 42 years and seen recalls come and go from the dealer perspective, this is just another where the problem will be rectified and 12 months after the event it will be forgotten by all but a few.

All manufacturers make their cars to a standard - the only difference is whether it is minimum or maximum.

Phinehas February 8, 2010 2:45 PM

Years ago, as a fairly new driver, I had the throttle stick open on a Citroen Dyane - full throttle, although that wasn't going to put me into hyperspace, it was enough to give a sudden rush of adrenalin. The problem as I immediately grasped was two-fold: if I pushed the clutch in, the engine would destroy itself; if I didn't, the engine would still eventually destroy itself but I would be going faster. Dead easy: clutch in, stamp several times on the accelerator to free it and when that didn't happen, switch off to the first ignition key point which would not engage the steering lock. It took about 5 seconds from the beginning to end and never did I feel that the vehicle was beyond my control. True, my heart was pounding, but that was because of embarrassment as much as anything. It was at night on a dark, narrow, bendy road too.

When I read of people who are in a car with a stuck throttle on a freeway who have time to phone the emergency services, I really wonder what is going through their minds.

It's one thing to have the throttle stick at a critical point. But surely, there's something you can do about it on a freeway. If your car won't let you kill the engine at a time and place of your choosing, trade it for one that will.

As my steam engine-driving grandfather used to say: never start the damned thing unless you're sure how to stop it.

kdwilcox February 8, 2010 4:09 PM

So Beeachland 2;

'I can still call them fools if they did not know how

to turn the car off.They took an irresponsible risk

driving the car without sufficient knowledge to be

in control of it'.

Did you know one of the drivers was a California

Highway Cop,a very experienced driver?

I hardly think what you said fits the bill here,do you?

Like i said,lets wait untill we know the facts.

beachland2 February 8, 2010 6:31 PM

The fact that he was a cop makes me feel it's highly probable he was an idiot. Poor family.

vectraman February 9, 2010 9:08 AM

V.W GROUP, SOON TO BE THE WORLDS NEW BIGGEST CAR MAKER!

hedgecreep February 9, 2010 9:42 AM

beachland, seeing that you are so wise and clearly spend all your time writing rather than reading messages here, might you please explain how `fools` might switch off a runaway Toyota?

vectraman: damn straight.

Lee23404 February 9, 2010 9:59 AM

A lawyer (can't remember his name, the one who gets all the footballers off driving bans) has said that anybody who drives one of the affected Toyotas knowing that it may have a fault could be held criminally liable if the fault occurs and they have a crash. His advice is to leave it at home and not even take it to the dealers, make them pick it up. Sounds a bit extreme to me but it's interesting to get a legal opinion.

vectraman - spot on.

ThwartedEfforts February 9, 2010 11:00 AM

beachland2 said, "it doesnt matter whether it was a mechanical or electrical failure of the throttle, they still could have turned the engine off" - and it's depressing that people agreed with such wilful ignorance.

To repeat: you can't just "turn the engine off" in a Toyota that has keyless ignition. The NHTSA has already stated that the extended shutdown time in an emergency situation plays a significant factor in how that situation is resolved.

A two second reaction time and three second shutdown time at 75mph equates to over 550 feet of tarmac, and even then you still have to bring the dead car to a halt with no power steering. Care to try all that on an out of town B-road? Thought not.

kdwilcox February 9, 2010 2:23 PM

Beachland 2.

Why don't you go and grow a brain!

then you just might understand what

a nasty little man you are.

To say such a thing is way beyond  what

should be said about people who have been killed.

ThwartedEfforts,there is no point,beachland2 thinks one and all are fools or idiots,bar himself of course!

beachland2 February 9, 2010 3:29 PM

When you can discuss things without making them personal i will respond to you Kdwilcox.

ThwartedEfforts

The fool of a cop had time to have a conversation with 911. more than 3 seconds of time.

My other point is that only a fool would drive/own a car that took 3 seconds to turn off anyway. so he's a  double idiot as far as i'm concerned.

ThwartedEfforts February 9, 2010 7:30 PM

I can't pass comment on the hapless cop as I don't know the exact circumstances of his demise (and neither do you).

Cop aside, your stance continues to be what's idiotic here, in that you assume anyone driving a car with keyless ignition is a fool. It shouldn't be news to you that most manufs. now fit the systems as standard - Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes to name but a few. It's not an option you can untick, same as ABS - and as we've recently discovered, that can go wrong too.

In short, don't blame users of technology when it's the manufacturers who have been forcing technology upon us, sometimes as a result of legislation but mostly for the sake of it. When choosing a car that DOESN'T have these systems fitted as standard narrows by the day, you really can't slap a "stupid" label on what will soon be the majority of new car owners. Get real.

beachland2 February 9, 2010 8:05 PM

If you accept an off switch that takes 3 seconds, then you accept you might die if the throttle sticks. simple as that. It's a choice. There are still many cars that dont have keyless ignition. I would like to know if all keyless systems are not instant turn off. they should have the jet fighter style flip up safety switch to prevent accidental turn off.

Ranald February 20, 2010 3:48 PM

Hi Steve

Having had plenty of cases of sticking throttles in years gone by, I'm pretty relaxed about this happening again.  In any case, as you suggest, there's probably quite a bit of warning that things are not entirely as they should be.  I always drive manuals but I think we should recognise that things could be somewhat stickier for Americans with their almost universally fitted automatic transmissions.  I can just reach for the ignition switch and depress the clutch simultaneously, avoiding even a rev-limiter incident, let alone an accident but I feel that the torque multiplication characteristics of the auto, combined with the lack of a clutch could, at the very least, make response to the emergency somewhat slower, even for a switched-on driver.  Factor in the generally lower standard of the average non-enthusiast American driver and you have a real recipe for real disaster.

ericheadley February 23, 2010 11:55 PM

I suggest that all of you who think this problem is just due to incompetent americans look at this video and draw your own conclusions

news.yahoo.com/.../18292054

fast ed February 27, 2010 1:46 PM

With all this news about sticking accelerator pedals, are people now too dumb to realise, they can switch the engine off if they cannot release the pedal with their foot.

This is instead of blindly letting the car accelerate. Or you can always stick the gearbox in neutral (manual or auto)and let the engine bounce against the limiter, as you gradually come to a stop using the brakes quite safely.

This issue just shows how many people today, drive a car with brains in neutral, no understanding of how it works, and if a fault occurs how to find a way around it.

It does make me think that the thottle should be cable still, If it fails, your just on tickover, instead of fly by wire electronics.

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ericheadley March 1, 2010 1:16 AM

Fast ed,

In the case of the video I posted the lady tried all the gear including neutral and it continued to accelerate past 100 mph.  She tried to turn it off and it refused to switch off.  Remeber no key just a button to press for three seconds.  If you get electronic meltdown in a completely electronically controlled car which then refuses to follow any commands, then what.  I fear that most Europeans figure that all Americans cannot drive, where in my experience this is far from the case.  I live in a small third world country and even here we are having difficulties with some of the newest Toyotas.  I am now almost certain that there is some dangerous flaw in Toyota's software and that it has taken some high profile deaths for it to come to light.  Look at the video then tell me what you would have done differently.

budgend March 1, 2010 9:43 PM

Yes, a driver should be able to control a vehicle if the accelerator was to stick open. But as this magazine has itself said with all the bad weather that we have had so far this year, people can not even find the light switch to turn on dipped headlights. On the M25 yesterday the over heads were saying slow down, surface spray, but a large proportion of drivers including HGV's were either on side lights or no lights at all.

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