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Renault is diverting all research and development money away from hybrid and hydrogen technologies in favour of electric cars, chief operating officer Patrick Pelata has confirmed.

Pelata's vision is that a third of Renault's line-up will be electric within a decade. He has also promised that it will have three battery-powered models on sale by 2011: an electric Kangoo van, a Clio-sized five-seat hatch and a larger saloon designed primarily for Israel but which would also be sold across E...Read the full article

This really is a big step.  For a major manufacturer to ditch the hybrid and hydrogen stepping stones and go straight fo the electric is really going to make a big difference to the speed of battery development.

Also interested in the battery exchange at a petrol station idea, sounds pretty good if the price is right.  If the infrastructure gets up and running, then places like london could really benefit from these vehicles.  All those courier companies using electric vans etc, maybe London will smell a lot less?  Enough dreaming anyway.

Still does look like a major step forward for the technology and its development.

The battery exchange idea to me sounds like even more of an infrastructure change than Hydrogen. Having a standard battery for all cars, and a standard way of accessing it from below resulting in a standard floorpan design? A Clio and an S-Class would require very different battery pack sizes to achieve similar ranges, plus it would give the government something else to tax.

Really not going to happen as I can't see manufacturers agreeing to it. Plus when all manufacturers in any given technology all have to agree to a standard, it's always the lowest common denominator that wins out on cost grounds rather than the best design.

Car or even battery pack leasing might cover the long term costs of replacing the batteries and could work, but the swapping at a petrol station idea just seems like it has too many holes in.

Orangewheels:

The battery exchange idea to me sounds like even more of an infrastructure change than Hydrogen. Having a standard battery for all cars, and a standard way of accessing it from below resulting in a standard floorpan design? A Clio and an S-Class would require very different battery pack sizes to achieve similar ranges, plus it would give the government something else to tax.

I can't see why this need be any more difficult than the current situation, albeit on a much, much smaller scale, that we have with different battery sizes for all sorts of consumer items ? These batteries come from different suppliers, they all fit different items from other different manufacturers and they all have a common fitting system which seems to work OK. No practical reason why a similar concept cannot be agreed between motor manufacturers if its the only way to make it work. If you need more power for an S-Class than a Clio just add space for more battery packs to slide into the relevant slots. You could always end up buying the car and having a lease for the batteries that allows you to swap battery packs as and when needed in addition to charging at night etc at home.

Orangewheels:

 A Clio and an S-Class would require very different battery pack sizes to achieve similar ranges

That is a simple problem to overcome, just like in handheld devices, small torch uses 1 AA battery, bigger torch uses 2 AA batteries. So I'd assume a clio sized car would have 1 battery and an S-class would have 3 or 4.

Orangewheels:

the swapping at a petrol station idea just seems like it has too many holes in.

I agree the main problem I think would be the availability of batteries, a large enough pack would be hard to store and hard to move, and what would happen if the station was closed or had more likely run out of packs. It is likely that a car on this sort of system would be slot loading like a camera or phone, to aid in speeding up the transfer and idiot proofing, but if it takes longer than say 5-10 minutes then the majority of people would not accept it as a viable means of a recharge, although it would be better than having to wait half an hour for a charge. On the plus side a proper mainstream manufacturer making proper R&D'd electric vehicles will allow a much better packaged and financed vehicle, and make a real impact on pollution, if people buy them.

I agree, I think it will be batteries......hydrogen is too costly to install etc and its not great in terms of process in the first place; its too complex and costly around...infrusture etc....everyone (in the developed world....just about!) has electric.

I think it will be battery packs and as people above say, you can have different sizes now and or just the same size with more or less.

Put it a different way, look how many different types of engine we have and look at how many different petrol providers we have.....

I think the future is batteries and I also think (know) the charge time will reduce dramatically.......I cannot see hyrdogen being a big thing.....battery exchange and quick charging....definately....as a note, you will find mixes for things, but for the majority I am positive (no pun intended!) it will be batteries in the long run....the GM Voltec (whatever it is called) system where the engine is the generator is going to be a big thing.....pure batteries and that kind of GM system I think will be the work horses...for sure

I wonder if the fork lift trucks they will need to shift that size of battery around will be electric powered?

On a less sarcastic note - i hope we get a change in the infrastructure but we need to remember that all that power to charge the batteries will still need to come from somewhere, the existing grid is close to capacity and has massive losses between generation and distribution (up to 60% apparantly). Micro generation of Hydrogen would be a way round but is still very much in its infancy.

Problem is the car makers will suddenly find themselves way in front of national power networks and development will be stalled by our outdated generation methods.  

Honestly, Hydrogen I really do not think is going to be a goer.......too much infrastructure and its micro generation.....not going to happen commerically (if its in its infancy) for ten or twenty years......look at the leaps and bounds made by engines in efficiency in just five years.  You can locally produce electric and I said I would reference the sums etc and I will (it will be next week though with my work load......I thought I would have time last week)...but there are some many new renewable products coming on the market that housing power consumption will reduce and local produced renewable power will also come more and more into play.

Their will be a mix of solutions, but the most common will be batteries and GM style eco voltec thing.......right now you are seeing more efficient cars, more hybrids and these small engined generator cars with 150 mpg etc.......and they will make them more efficient etc. Also I know for sure battery charging times will decrease......the killer with hydrogen is the process of maufacture is not green....that's partly the point, next you have infrastructure etc......etc

Also with a note to the grid, if we are now capacity now, then capacity will have to be increased anyway whilst all the houses etc catch up eco wise.......GM style eco Voltec thing is the way to go.....then batteries.....you will also find more people using public transport.....hydrogen.......I cannot ever see it being super mainstream, I am not even sure it will make it into the city centres let alone motor service stations and rural areas......and that's only after they refine the production process sufficiently.......its going to be what....20-30 years at least....by which time they are on the 4th gen. Voltec thing with what about 200-250mpg?........maybe more....plus you then have to consider all the advances in materials and construction etc.....hydrogen is not the magic bullet and will take many years....by which time batteries will be along way from what they are now as will the GM voltec. thing

Dr Bunsen:

we need to remember that all that power to charge the batteries will still need to come from somewhere, the existing grid is close to capacity and has massive losses between generation and distribution (up to 60% apparantly)

 

I've seen this figure bandied about a few times and it's incorrect in context. Transmission and distribution is c90% efficient, and that's the only figure that's worth remembering in this instance.

Generating efficiencies vary between 90% for a wind turbine to 30% for a nuke (gas 50-60%; coal 35-45%), but we're looking to displace oil as an energy source so generating efficiency doesn't matter, only delivered energy via the grid and the means by which that power is generated.

You also have load factor, which is the amount of time spent at rated capacity in a year, about 27% for wind turbines and 85% for a nuke.

 Actual grid capacity is a funny one. At 1800hrs in winter it's close to capacity - with appropriate safety margins - but for much of the rest of the time it's nowhere near rated capacity. We will need urgent upgrades, but more to accomodate new generating technology and heating tech in homes as our natural gas runs out.

 I'll repeat my Nazi Sharks link since it's proved a very popular paper and has some more information http://www.claverton-energy.com/download/289/ the scenario it contains requires only a 30% increase in electricty requirement and if charging was timed correctly during a 24hr period I don't believe any grid upgrades would be necessary.

 Regards

More proof Renault/Nissan management are losing their marbles.

To go all electric they're gonna invest all savings into R&D, at the moment all-electric vehicles are just not viable (sorry to say in the real world the Tesla's a joke), and going to be extremely expensive.

I don't hear any other maker going all electric, not BMW, Merc or Toyota - the three leaders in alternative power generation. Renault really think they're gonna get this right on their own by 2011?? And at what cost? They'll never get it right in such a short space time, not at any decent cost.

Ironically, this makes me admire the Volt even more.

North:

hydrogen is too costly to install etc and its not great in terms of process in the first place

I think the complexities of using hydrogen are just too problematic, unless it would be possible to use tanks of the stuff in much the same way as a battery. Does anyone else remember using the old soda syphons where one inserted a Sparklette bulb to charge the syphon and make the pressurised gaseous liquid ? Maybe something like that would work. Anyway, I cannot say that I'm too keen on driving a car around that contains a highly flammable/explosive gas contained in a very high pressure tank, so maybe batteries are the best option. I just think that Renault are being very "brave" (in the same sense that Sir Humphrey would have used it in "Yes, Minister"). Bon chances, messieurs.

 You need to factor in the 'French effect'. Whilst not always a good thing, in this case, I could see a national infrastructure arising first in France where they do seem to have the ability to do this kind of thing. Obviously, Renault/Nissan will be looking beyond France, but I think that it will be in French (and Japanese) cities and towns that this will be researched and developed. How this works -if at all- with more rural locations will be interesting. A lot of France is still relatively rural and that could be the key to cracking this particular nut.

Swapping batteries may not be as logistically difficult for garages as has been suggested. If the removed batteries were put on charge as they're deposited, fewer 'fresh' ones would need to be transported between garages. Obviously, there would be some transports to avoid over- or under-supply at particular locations, but that is not beyond the wit of l'homme.

As for universality, if Renault/Nissan get a system going first, they might just set the standard themselves. Of course, they just as equally, might not. It will be interesting.