I can't see Ron changing his approach to appease Lewis. If he didn't allow Lauda, Watson, Prost, Senna, Berger, Coulthard, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso, Kovaleinen or Button to keep their winning trophies, then I can't see him allowing Hamilton to keep his. And I don't know why Hamilton seems to think he is more special than any of the above drivers.
It has been an interesting year or more in the relationship between Hamilton and McLaren, mainly since Hamilton had his "secret" meeting with Christian Horner at Montreal in 2011. At no point has Hamilton positively and unequivocally affirmed his desire to stay at McLaren, evading the question as much as possible. This year he also seems to be trying to assert his individuality a lot more, publicly hanging around with rapper celebrity mates and regularly finding ways to openly flaunt seemingly insignificant clauses in his McLaren contract, such as the (alleged) "no facial hair" and "no earrings/piercings/jewellery" clauses; the sort of thing that is oblivious to most onlookers but would privately drive Ron up the wall. He has also (supposedly) bought himself a new Pagani, which must be considered a slap in the face to his employer, who happens to be a supercar manufacturer preparing to launch a new flagship model...
Dennis, Whitmarsh et al have managed to sound more positive in their very McLaren way of always saying positive yet noncommital things in the most longwinded fashion possible, but quite clearly they are not falling over themselves to get Hamilton's signature on a contract.
I suspect that McLaren will take a fairly hard line with Hamilton. If I was Ron, I wouldn't be particularly inclined to acquiesce to his request. I'd be wanting a serious commitment from him, a long (3 years) contract and an unwavering public commitment to the people in the team. The trophy issue is really a MacGuffin; simply a case of Hamilton stamping his foot and demanding more recognition and reward, but he will need to find another way to get that recognition because I could easily see Ron calling his bluff and throwing him out over it. Both sides have made bold public statements about their respective positions, and someone is going to have to back down. I suspect Ron can find another good driver more easily than Hamilton can find another good team.
Jenson Button has played himself into a very strong position at McLaren, despite not having Hamilton's raw speed. He is universally popular with the team, from the very top to the lowliest janitors and receptionists, and is very good at playing the role of frontman for the McLaren brand. He is also happy to not live out his private life in public, and is not constantly trying to put his own public profile above the team's This keeps sponsors happy, which keeps the money coming in. With Button on board, McLaren don't need Hamilton's undoubted public popularity as much as they otherwise would, and could easily replace him with another fast driver, even if he isn't quite as fast as Hamilton.
I can't see Ron changing his approach to appease Lewis. If he didn't allow Lauda, Watson, Prost, Senna, Berger, Coulthard, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso, Kovaleinen or Button to keep their winning trophies, then I can't see him allowing Hamilton to keep his. And I don't know why Hamilton seems to think he is more special than any of the above drivers.
I can't see Ron changing his approach to appease Lewis. If he didn't allow Lauda, Watson, Prost, Senna, Berger, Coulthard, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso, Kovaleinen or Button to keep their winning trophies, then I can't see him allowing Hamilton to keep his. And I don't know why Hamilton seems to think he is more special than any of the above drivers.
Don't they get a copy for themselves?
Yes, but I believe "Lewis Hamilton's" point is that in other teams it works the other way around. I used quotes around his name because when I read/hear things like "keeping trophies will be bargaining point" either said by or attributed to Lewis Hamilton, I can't help but hear the management behind him, whispering the words. I don't believe it's about the prestiege or heritage for him retaining the originals, but rather having the shiney trinkets among the assets of the "Hamilton" brand post F1.
If I knew what I was getting into, I wouldn't have done it...and I would have been wrong.
Yes, but I believe "Lewis Hamilton's" point is that in other teams it works the other way around.
I see. I thought it would be odd that they go away with nothing. At P1 International they had a trophy cabinet full of Damon Hill's silverware (when he was sill associated with the club, of course). A very impressive haul it was, too.
Yes, but I believe "Lewis Hamilton's" point is that in other teams it works the other way around. I used quotes around his name because when I read/hear things like "keeping trophies will be bargaining point" either said by or attributed to Lewis Hamilton, I can't help but hear the management behind him, whispering the words. I don't believe it's about the prestiege or heritage for him retaining the originals, but rather having the shiney trinkets among the assets of the "Hamilton" brand post F1.
The desire to have the original trophy for his work is understandable, and different people have different attitudes towards such visible trinkets. Alain Prost gave most of his away, and apparently the only visible signs of his rather successful driving career on display at his home are his four championship-year helmets. Mario Andretti, on the other hand, has a trophy hall bigger than your house, filled with every trophy/pennant/plaque/flag/certificate he has ever won in his life.
The interesting point about soon-to-named-Trophygate is how Hamilton & his management are publicly challenging Dennis & McLaren to change one of their longest-standing policies to appease him, because I'm quite sure that's how Ron will see it. The trophy makers regularly produce replicas for McLaren drivers, and if it's the same manufacturer making a second trophy which is indistinguishable from the first one they made a week or so before, how much can it really matter to either side? It's the principle of Hamilton wanting McLaren to make a very public acknowledgment of his importance to them.
Jenson Button has played himself into a very strong position at McLaren, despite not having Hamilton's raw speed. He is universally popular with the team, from the very top to the lowliest janitors and receptionists, and is very good at playing the role of frontman for the McLaren brand. He is also happy to not live out his private life in public, and is not constantly trying to put his own public profile above the team's This keeps sponsors happy, which keeps the money coming in. With Button on board, McLaren don't need Hamilton's undoubted public popularity as much as they otherwise would, and could easily replace him with another fast driver, even if he isn't quite as fast as Hamilton.
Stu, I totally agree that it seems that they seem to love Button and I am sure his physique and appearance is much more Boss and TAG Hueur than Hamiltons bling. This is a little ironic given Briatore's criticism of Button's playboy lifestyle in the early part of his career. Maybe this is how Button gets away with the oft' present facial hair.
One thing puzzles me however is that in 2.5 seasons, I have not seen many pictures of Ron and Jenson together, and never have i seen any that show a warmth towards him from Ron.
One thing puzzles me however is that in 2.5 seasons, I have not seen many pictures of Ron and Jenson together, and never have i seen any that show a warmth towards him from Ron.
In fairness, I haven't seen many photos of Ron with anyone over the last couple of years since he publicly stepped away from the race team to concentrate on the road car business. The only person I have seen alongside him in photos is Anthony Hamilton, and I'm not sure if those are recent photos or from back in happier days.
Although I can't tell you which ones, I have seen him on TV at a number of races, certainly more than I expected as i thought he was/ should be, keeping his head down, and certainly more than twice in the last 12 months. I have a feeling I have seen him in frame when Button has won too, and it has struck me as strange for a while.
I suspect that McLaren will take a fairly hard line with Hamilton. If I was Ron, I wouldn't be particularly inclined to acquiesce to his request. I'd be wanting a serious commitment from him, a long (3 years) contract and an unwavering public commitment to the people in the team. The trophy issue is really a MacGuffin; simply a case of Hamilton stamping his foot and demanding more recognition and reward, but he will need to find another way to get that recognition because I could easily see Ron calling his bluff and throwing him out over it. Both sides have made bold public statements about their respective positions, and someone is going to have to back down. I suspect Ron can find another good driver more easily than Hamilton can find another good team.
Jenson Button has played himself into a very strong position at McLaren, despite not having Hamilton's raw speed. He is universally popular with the team, from the very top to the lowliest janitors and receptionists, and is very good at playing the role of frontman for the McLaren brand. He is also happy to not live out his private life in public, and is not constantly trying to put his own public profile above the team's This keeps sponsors happy, which keeps the money coming in. With Button on board, McLaren don't need Hamilton's undoubted public popularity as much as they otherwise would, and could easily replace him with another fast driver, even if he isn't quite as fast as Hamilton.
While I agree they don't seem to be overly keen on each other (LH and McLaren) I don't think either of them have a choice for 2013. LH can't go to Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes would be a huge risk in terms of car pace, and FA wouldn't have LH at Ferrari. Likewise McLaren couldn't find another known driver with the outright race or qualifying speed of LH that's not contracted in 2013 (Alonso, and Vettel are probably the only two who could compare).
Would McLaren really go into 2013 with the risk that JB could have another 2012 type season? I really can't see another driver who has LH's ability to drag speed out of a car. Not sure where all the parties and distractions fit in with LH - I think he's been outstanding this season alongside Alonso.
Getting back to Peter's OP - Vettel will bide his time, and choose the team he thinks he can win the WDC in - pretty sensible, but he needs to watch Webber doesn't beat him over a season in the meantime.
I really can't see another driver who has LH's ability to drag speed out of a car.
As we've never seen Lewis Hamilton in another F1 car, we've also never seen, what some might consider, a current contender in the McLaren...it is hard to tell, and that is the dilema that aflicts teams at this time of year; moreso when there is a state of flux. For my money, Paul di Resta (*) would show him and Jenson Button a thing or two.
I'd be suprised if Lewis Hamilton won another driver's champiosnhip at McLaren. A season or two battling away with Lotus, Mercedes, or even, Sauber wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, even if it was only a stepping stone to Red Bull or Ferrari (thpough I'm sure he will still be at McLaren for the next season at least).
(*) Always happy for British drivers to occupy McLaren seats. When one of them wins, the national anthem is mercifully short, and only played once. If Mark Webber wins, I can feel myself getting old during the Australian and Austrian anthems.
If I knew what I was getting into, I wouldn't have done it...and I would have been wrong.
28 January 2009
I can't see Ron changing his approach to appease Lewis. If he didn't allow Lauda, Watson, Prost, Senna, Berger, Coulthard, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso, Kovaleinen or Button to keep their winning trophies, then I can't see him allowing Hamilton to keep his. And I don't know why Hamilton seems to think he is more special than any of the above drivers.
It has been an interesting year or more in the relationship between Hamilton and McLaren, mainly since Hamilton had his "secret" meeting with Christian Horner at Montreal in 2011. At no point has Hamilton positively and unequivocally affirmed his desire to stay at McLaren, evading the question as much as possible. This year he also seems to be trying to assert his individuality a lot more, publicly hanging around with rapper celebrity mates and regularly finding ways to openly flaunt seemingly insignificant clauses in his McLaren contract, such as the (alleged) "no facial hair" and "no earrings/piercings/jewellery" clauses; the sort of thing that is oblivious to most onlookers but would privately drive Ron up the wall. He has also (supposedly) bought himself a new Pagani, which must be considered a slap in the face to his employer, who happens to be a supercar manufacturer preparing to launch a new flagship model...
Dennis, Whitmarsh et al have managed to sound more positive in their very McLaren way of always saying positive yet noncommital things in the most longwinded fashion possible, but quite clearly they are not falling over themselves to get Hamilton's signature on a contract.
I suspect that McLaren will take a fairly hard line with Hamilton. If I was Ron, I wouldn't be particularly inclined to acquiesce to his request. I'd be wanting a serious commitment from him, a long (3 years) contract and an unwavering public commitment to the people in the team. The trophy issue is really a MacGuffin; simply a case of Hamilton stamping his foot and demanding more recognition and reward, but he will need to find another way to get that recognition because I could easily see Ron calling his bluff and throwing him out over it. Both sides have made bold public statements about their respective positions, and someone is going to have to back down. I suspect Ron can find another good driver more easily than Hamilton can find another good team.
Jenson Button has played himself into a very strong position at McLaren, despite not having Hamilton's raw speed. He is universally popular with the team, from the very top to the lowliest janitors and receptionists, and is very good at playing the role of frontman for the McLaren brand. He is also happy to not live out his private life in public, and is not constantly trying to put his own public profile above the team's This keeps sponsors happy, which keeps the money coming in. With Button on board, McLaren don't need Hamilton's undoubted public popularity as much as they otherwise would, and could easily replace him with another fast driver, even if he isn't quite as fast as Hamilton.
www.TheCarExpert.co.uk/forums
28 July 2008
I can't see Ron changing his approach to appease Lewis. If he didn't allow Lauda, Watson, Prost, Senna, Berger, Coulthard, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso, Kovaleinen or Button to keep their winning trophies, then I can't see him allowing Hamilton to keep his. And I don't know why Hamilton seems to think he is more special than any of the above drivers.
Don't they get a copy for themselves?
You know, I do believe that is a 'pec'...
6 November 2007
I can't see Ron changing his approach to appease Lewis. If he didn't allow Lauda, Watson, Prost, Senna, Berger, Coulthard, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso, Kovaleinen or Button to keep their winning trophies, then I can't see him allowing Hamilton to keep his. And I don't know why Hamilton seems to think he is more special than any of the above drivers.
Don't they get a copy for themselves?
Yes, but I believe "Lewis Hamilton's" point is that in other teams it works the other way around. I used quotes around his name because when I read/hear things like "keeping trophies will be bargaining point" either said by or attributed to Lewis Hamilton, I can't help but hear the management behind him, whispering the words. I don't believe it's about the prestiege or heritage for him retaining the originals, but rather having the shiney trinkets among the assets of the "Hamilton" brand post F1.
If I knew what I was getting into, I wouldn't have done it...and I would have been wrong.
28 July 2008
Yes, but I believe "Lewis Hamilton's" point is that in other teams it works the other way around.
I see. I thought it would be odd that they go away with nothing. At P1 International they had a trophy cabinet full of Damon Hill's silverware (when he was sill associated with the club, of course). A very impressive haul it was, too.
You know, I do believe that is a 'pec'...
28 January 2009
Yes, but I believe "Lewis Hamilton's" point is that in other teams it works the other way around. I used quotes around his name because when I read/hear things like "keeping trophies will be bargaining point" either said by or attributed to Lewis Hamilton, I can't help but hear the management behind him, whispering the words. I don't believe it's about the prestiege or heritage for him retaining the originals, but rather having the shiney trinkets among the assets of the "Hamilton" brand post F1.
The desire to have the original trophy for his work is understandable, and different people have different attitudes towards such visible trinkets. Alain Prost gave most of his away, and apparently the only visible signs of his rather successful driving career on display at his home are his four championship-year helmets. Mario Andretti, on the other hand, has a trophy hall bigger than your house, filled with every trophy/pennant/plaque/flag/certificate he has ever won in his life.
The interesting point about soon-to-named-Trophygate is how Hamilton & his management are publicly challenging Dennis & McLaren to change one of their longest-standing policies to appease him, because I'm quite sure that's how Ron will see it. The trophy makers regularly produce replicas for McLaren drivers, and if it's the same manufacturer making a second trophy which is indistinguishable from the first one they made a week or so before, how much can it really matter to either side? It's the principle of Hamilton wanting McLaren to make a very public acknowledgment of his importance to them.
www.TheCarExpert.co.uk/forums
29 November 2011
Jenson Button has played himself into a very strong position at McLaren, despite not having Hamilton's raw speed. He is universally popular with the team, from the very top to the lowliest janitors and receptionists, and is very good at playing the role of frontman for the McLaren brand. He is also happy to not live out his private life in public, and is not constantly trying to put his own public profile above the team's This keeps sponsors happy, which keeps the money coming in. With Button on board, McLaren don't need Hamilton's undoubted public popularity as much as they otherwise would, and could easily replace him with another fast driver, even if he isn't quite as fast as Hamilton.
Stu, I totally agree that it seems that they seem to love Button and I am sure his physique and appearance is much more Boss and TAG Hueur than Hamiltons bling. This is a little ironic given Briatore's criticism of Button's playboy lifestyle in the early part of his career. Maybe this is how Button gets away with the oft' present facial hair.
One thing puzzles me however is that in 2.5 seasons, I have not seen many pictures of Ron and Jenson together, and never have i seen any that show a warmth towards him from Ron.
Has anyone else noticed this?
28 January 2009
One thing puzzles me however is that in 2.5 seasons, I have not seen many pictures of Ron and Jenson together, and never have i seen any that show a warmth towards him from Ron.
In fairness, I haven't seen many photos of Ron with anyone over the last couple of years since he publicly stepped away from the race team to concentrate on the road car business. The only person I have seen alongside him in photos is Anthony Hamilton, and I'm not sure if those are recent photos or from back in happier days.
www.TheCarExpert.co.uk/forums
29 November 2011
Although I can't tell you which ones, I have seen him on TV at a number of races, certainly more than I expected as i thought he was/ should be, keeping his head down, and certainly more than twice in the last 12 months. I have a feeling I have seen him in frame when Button has won too, and it has struck me as strange for a while.
16 May 2012
I suspect that McLaren will take a fairly hard line with Hamilton. If I was Ron, I wouldn't be particularly inclined to acquiesce to his request. I'd be wanting a serious commitment from him, a long (3 years) contract and an unwavering public commitment to the people in the team. The trophy issue is really a MacGuffin; simply a case of Hamilton stamping his foot and demanding more recognition and reward, but he will need to find another way to get that recognition because I could easily see Ron calling his bluff and throwing him out over it. Both sides have made bold public statements about their respective positions, and someone is going to have to back down. I suspect Ron can find another good driver more easily than Hamilton can find another good team.
Jenson Button has played himself into a very strong position at McLaren, despite not having Hamilton's raw speed. He is universally popular with the team, from the very top to the lowliest janitors and receptionists, and is very good at playing the role of frontman for the McLaren brand. He is also happy to not live out his private life in public, and is not constantly trying to put his own public profile above the team's This keeps sponsors happy, which keeps the money coming in. With Button on board, McLaren don't need Hamilton's undoubted public popularity as much as they otherwise would, and could easily replace him with another fast driver, even if he isn't quite as fast as Hamilton.
While I agree they don't seem to be overly keen on each other (LH and McLaren) I don't think either of them have a choice for 2013. LH can't go to Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes would be a huge risk in terms of car pace, and FA wouldn't have LH at Ferrari. Likewise McLaren couldn't find another known driver with the outright race or qualifying speed of LH that's not contracted in 2013 (Alonso, and Vettel are probably the only two who could compare).
Would McLaren really go into 2013 with the risk that JB could have another 2012 type season? I really can't see another driver who has LH's ability to drag speed out of a car. Not sure where all the parties and distractions fit in with LH - I think he's been outstanding this season alongside Alonso.
Getting back to Peter's OP - Vettel will bide his time, and choose the team he thinks he can win the WDC in - pretty sensible, but he needs to watch Webber doesn't beat him over a season in the meantime.
6 November 2007
I really can't see another driver who has LH's ability to drag speed out of a car.
As we've never seen Lewis Hamilton in another F1 car, we've also never seen, what some might consider, a current contender in the McLaren...it is hard to tell, and that is the dilema that aflicts teams at this time of year; moreso when there is a state of flux. For my money, Paul di Resta (*) would show him and Jenson Button a thing or two.
I'd be suprised if Lewis Hamilton won another driver's champiosnhip at McLaren. A season or two battling away with Lotus, Mercedes, or even, Sauber wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, even if it was only a stepping stone to Red Bull or Ferrari (thpough I'm sure he will still be at McLaren for the next season at least).
(*) Always happy for British drivers to occupy McLaren seats. When one of them wins, the national anthem is mercifully short, and only played once. If Mark Webber wins, I can feel myself getting old during the Australian and Austrian anthems.
If I knew what I was getting into, I wouldn't have done it...and I would have been wrong.