Autocar - First for car news and reviews

disco.stu January 13, 2010 1:27 PM

This article seems to be somewhat misleading.  Surely a car with the torque being apportioned to all 4 wheels is better than a car with torque only able to go to 2 wheels, regardless of whether it is the front or rear wheels.

Being lulled into a false sense of security is a driver error, not a fault of a 4WD/AWD system.  If you can't drive appropriately for the conditions, it doesn't matter what sort of car you are in.

Most modern AWD systems, such as Audi's quattro systems, can apportion drive to only the wheels with grip available via their electronics, so that if only one wheel is able to turn it will still get drive while the other wheels are braked to stop wheelspin.  So if the left-rear wheel can keep turning and keep the car moving, it will do so.  Surely this is better than only having two wheels to choose from?

Most roads in the greater London area have been driveable with FWD cars over the last week, providing you drive sensibly.  But having AWD is surely a better option if it is available to you.

Evo_ermine January 13, 2010 1:39 PM

Interesting piece Andrew.

The ice is the biggest problem today here in Lincolnshire. A lot of snow finally melted but it froze again during the night and a lot of roads look normal but are seriously dangerous.

I guess 4WD doesn't stop a car sliding sideways if you take a bend too fast any more than 2WD, it just gives it better traction in terms of driving forward, which might explain the LR Discovery that's slammed sideways into a wall on a bend near my house.

Timberwolf January 13, 2010 2:14 PM

I don't know if things are somewhat better out in the Wye, but round here the idiots are charging round like idiots regardless of drive configuration.  The only argument for 2WD is it increases the chance they might get stuck *before* they crash in to something.

(I've been wondering whether I should, as a public service, mount signs on the front and rear of my car saying, "put it in second gear and try it *gently* this time.")

robjwood January 13, 2010 2:18 PM

Was it intentional to include a Land Rover Defender driving past in the stranded CR-V in the photo.

Andrew F January 13, 2010 2:33 PM

That's my old Series III trying to pull him out of the ditch. It's been doing quite a lot of rescue work round here recently

Evo Rob January 13, 2010 2:53 PM

I'm guessing that either you drive in mittens or the 4007 has absolutely no feel through the steering wheel. Otherwise you would have a good idea how much grip there was just by gently turning the wheel. In AWD cars with decent steering feel, gently moving the wheel from side to side, even when going in a straight line is enough to feel if there is a reasonable level of grip. Ultra-light steering = no grip.

As to not going out if conditions are too bad for 2WD, well you're making a big assumption that conditions are the same everywhere.

Recently, around here, the major roads have been fine, but getting to them along 400m of basically flat but iced up housing estate roads has been a nightmare for anyone with 2WD, but no problem at all with AWD. Tickover in first gear does the trick on the really slippy stuff. After that the other 20 miles to work on well gritted major roads was no problem.

misha1973 January 13, 2010 3:17 PM

I agree with disco.stu that article might be somewhat misleading. So few important questios should be clarified:

- 4WD does give superior traction on snow than FWD, but does NOT enhance braking abilities

- roadholding in bends dependes more on suspension setup, height of center of gravity and weight of the car, than number of wheels driven (this applies for 4WD and FWD. RWD on summer tyres is rubish on snow or ice)

- hard suspension is recipe for disaster in snowy conditions. Snow and ice demand "soft touch", therefore greater wheel travel, higher sidwall tyres and generally a lot of compliance

- not all 4WD sistems are the same! Relying heavily on traction control, no matter how sofisticated, is recipe for a lot of trouble, or at least a lot of ridicule :)

( Best live show I saw last year: after 30cm of snow fell in 36 hours in Belgrade, lot of cars were stuck in the parking lots. Now imagine the scene where driver of X5, on '19 road tyres tries to get out of carpark, sliding in every possible direction and local joker in disintegrating Mk1 Golf, but with apparently new shocks, on some new 155-13 winter Dunlops practicaly running circles around him without even a slip! I would have payed a round for whole pub to see this!)

- any sort of automatic centre diff lock is welcome, rear lock only when trying to get going in deep snow. Greater clearance is also helpfull. ( eg. Forester)

- best winter car is NOT Disco with 2.7 tons and some "universal/all season/average eveywhere" low profile tyres. Defender on heavily "lamellised" (fine jagged cuts in thread) 235/85 -16 is better option.

- best winter car is small hatchback, with higher ground clearance, like Panda 4x4, Suzuki SX4 etc., AND PROPER WINTER TYRES!

Conclusion: real safety on snow and ice can only be obtained with 4 decent winter tyres (the ones designated M & S, with additional snowflake ) and somewhat counterintuitive driving style, i.e. no harsh reaction no matter what!

Lanciaman January 13, 2010 3:29 PM

Dear Andrew.

1. Buy winter tyres.

2. Switch off electronics.

3. Switch on brain.

Kojak911 January 13, 2010 5:54 PM

The fact that Autocar TV resorts to a homemade impromptu car-park winter tyre test tells you all you need to know. Drivers, and the motoring press in the UK are not accustomed to these conditions. And that is fair enough, this is atypical weather. But when in doubt its typically better to keep one's trap firmly shut as opposed to pontificating with a limited knowledge base.  The idea that 2WD is better than 4WD as it makes you sharper and more aware is breathtaking. Try telling a soldier without a bullet proof vest is a better, more careful combatant.

realdriver January 13, 2010 6:32 PM

This is all about stopping. A 4WD car will only give you better traction (and better stability when braking, but this isn't the advantage it used to be because of ESP). It isn't going to give you an advantage when turning or braking. This gives people driving 4WD vehicles (the ones whithout a brain) a false sense of security so they drive faster and then can't brake or turn and run off the road...

John McToon January 13, 2010 6:44 PM

This blog seems to conclude that people should buy a 2WD car because they're too uneducated and / or stupid to drive a 4WD properly.

I don't buy that. I give people more credit than that. If someone's educated enough to know about winter tyres (which are a pointless spend) then they'll understand how a 4WD works.

110k January 13, 2010 6:58 PM

Hi John,

I agree that people will normally understand the difference between summer and winter tyres - you seem to forget that winter tyres work better in all winter conditions and that you do not use both sets of tyres at once - your summer tyres will last longer....

Winter tyres are pointless if you live in a country where it does not drop below 7 degrees....

Challenger440 January 13, 2010 6:59 PM

100% agree and it's what I've always maintained since owning an A4 Quattro a few years back - great going up hill, but on the way down....  it's no better than any other car.

My residing memory of 4wd though, was the immense cross country ability in, for example, heavy rain - the ability to put power down when the road was a river - that's where 4md really came into it's own.  (for me at least)

misha1973 January 13, 2010 8:08 PM

110k, you are spot on regarding winter tyres.

7 degres is temperature limit below which summer tyres just get too stiff and loose their grip. Even if it's dry, winter tyres below this temperature can help achieve  shorter braking distances. (some tests in Germany proved that)

Also, using winter tyres from 15. November to 15. March (legal obligation in some Alpine countries) help you save summer tyres. Personal experience: using winter tyres for 4-5 months a year helped me save my original summer set, which was changed at 100,000km !

So, instead of buying a summer tyres every 2-3 years, you buy both winter and summer set once every 6 years. Admittedly, additional set of wheels (steel ones used for winter set) do add to total cost a bit, safety has no price...

audilyy January 13, 2010 8:41 PM

I can see how 4 w drive can lull some drivers into a false sense of security. And lets face it most of them never have the need to use all the  capability  much less than in conditions the country has been suffering lately, so it is no surprise to find them in the side of road or pranged with the rest of 2 w drive stuff.  

Given the choice

e I think most drivers would take 4 w drive over 2 for the average uk journey, so don't be smug, but I might look into snow socks for my fwd hatchback next time.  What about chains?

73henny January 13, 2010 8:41 PM

To say that AWD makes no difference slowing down is completely wrong. Anybody that drives in snow frequently (I live in NW Scotland) knows that. Using brakes to slow, there will be little difference, but using the engine braking effect the AWD will greatly assist. Any off road lesson, and the first thing your told is not to use the brakes when going down a slippery hill. Exactly the same with snow. Stupid test by Autocar. Learn to drive properly.

fhp11 January 13, 2010 8:45 PM

Perhaps he needs a real 4WD instead of a sissy CRV??

Of course 4wd is better than 2wd

AndyRAC January 13, 2010 11:27 PM

Wait until Rally Sweden next month and compare the 4WD WRCars with the FWD S1600 cars - that should be fairly helpful, and far more relevant.

JackB January 14, 2010 12:40 AM

I can't believe how much uneducated most Brits are when it comes to driving car in winter conditions and the importance of winter tyres... To say FWD is better than 4WD in the snow is absolutely bonkers! And this is supposed to be a magazine for enthusiasts! Enthusiasts who rely on ESP when you could really use your driving skills. I've got an idea for Autocar staff - book a winter driving course e.g. in northern Sweden (ideally in old RWD Volvos 244) and we won't read a myriad horrendously ill-informed articles on Autocar next time there's some snow on the streets. By the way, you can't have more fun driving a car than doing it in a RWD with proper winter tyres in the snow. If you have the ability, of course.

JackB January 14, 2010 12:59 AM

Sorry Andrew, but your take on the subject is that of and old lady concerned about travelling safely in her car in the snow with her cat to a vet, and not that of a journo from a car magazine which apparently specializes in the subject of powersliding a car and generally driving it on the limit. And next time I read a review in Autocar where you slam a perfectly good car because it's not enough 'fun to drive', I'll remember what is your driving technique and understanding of 'fun' when the conditions demand a bit more skill - ESP on, and God save me from any trace of lateral slip! Sorry I'm a bit harsh, but I'm truly disappointed.

viking84 January 14, 2010 7:47 AM

So much disinformation :S I have been driving for 10 years now in Norway... most years with rear-wheel drive BMWs and this last year with an Audi A4 Quattro. My cunclusions are:

1. Nothing, even four wheel drive, is a substitute for proper winter tires. Not all seasons, but proper soft winter rubber! See this test for a comparison:www.caranddriver.com/.../2009_winter_tire_test-comparison_tests

2. Winter driving (given that you have proper tires) is all about skill and smooth inputs. You have to be constantly aware of changing grip and be ready to counter any slides.

3. ESP cannot save you if you go too fast into a corner on snow or ice... no matter what wheels are driven, if you run out of grip, you run out of grip!

4. Four wheel drive (proper 4 wheel drive) is awesome for travelling fast in snow! You can power yourself OUT of trouble simply by pointing the car in the right direction and nailing the throttle. That is IF you have the skills and are actually paying attention to what you are doing rather than relying on the ESP to save you...

viking84 January 14, 2010 7:55 AM

Oh and someone mentioned low profile tires and hard suspension? My A4 has S-Line sports suspension and low profile 235/40-18 tires and is absolutely brilliant on snow and ice ;) Most of the credit for that goes to the Nokian Hakka R winter tires, simply astounding amounts of grip!

944s2jock January 14, 2010 8:11 AM

Diesel Zafira a lot! of weight over driving wheels traction control light working overtime never stuck once in snow in west of Scotland (touch wood)only thing is back end does seems a wee bit keen to come round at times strangely at slow speeds!

A lot of of is being used to the conditions and driving accordingly What cripples the south of England whould hardly cause a riipple elswhere in rural areas in North of country

N0077666 January 14, 2010 8:30 AM

Totally agree with a lot of the comments on here that it is not what you drive but how you drive.  One thing that bugs me at work is people who can't come in because they have rwd! How stupid do they look when I pull up in my old "rwd" Omega, with summer tyres on!  We have a steep ramp to get up to the car park at our work that even the front drivers are struggling to get up, purely because people stop at the bottom, put it in 1st then rev the engine when the wheels start slipping.  Me in my rwd Omega, I keep moving, leave it in a high gear and get straight up no problems!

Driver training is the countrys problem, not the wrong type of snow or lack of salt etc!!! Maybe Autocar should run an advertising campaign?!

MattDB January 14, 2010 9:07 AM

Ice is Ice and no car can defeat it.  Drivers of 4x4's who think they are inviceable must be absolute idiots.  Maybe if the councils did not loose all of money in the Icelandic bank crash last year then they could afford to buy some grit for the roads.

We have a CRV and only yesterday I had to go up a hill where several cars and normal cars were being abandoned by the roadside or slowly turning around as they foud it impassable.  I simply selected 2nd gear and gently drove past the lot.  I must also add that the car needs 4 new tyres (all still legal but past their best), and the car still did what it needed to do.

misha1973 January 14, 2010 10:27 AM

@ viking 84

I mentioned hard suspension and low profile tyres :)

From my experience, you may have gotten just lucky, or you have a lot of snow driving experience.

Low profile winter tyres may work fine on packed snow, on smooth road. If you drive over a bump mid-corner, it may unsettle a car badly, due to suspension inability to apsorb a bump properly. Same happens the rest of year, mind.

As for 4WD giving you a better stability for braking...just partly true.

Letting the engine do the braking downhill while offroading, at 8-15km/h, is reasonable choice, especially if you have one of those systems that limit engine braking to avoid lock up (like BWM's MSR).

But, driving at 40-50km/h, on slushy road, with ice underneath is altogether different story. A friend of the family, driver with 40 years of experience and more than million km, actually had a 180 degre turn on highway, just because he got of gas pedal too quickly. Ok, this may be very rare occurence and he was driving on summer tires on packed snow, but it happens.

From my experience (six rather snowy winters, driving a Yugo, no ABS/ASR/ESP, 1960s style suspension and notoriously bad braking distribution between rear wheels, on summer tyres...crazy stuff, I know, but no accidents at all), best technique would be left-foot braking.

Never release the gas completely, to maintain some sort of driving force and brake appropriately and progresivelly to stop or decelerate.

viking84 January 14, 2010 10:32 AM

Driver training is indeed essential, along with an interest for how your car behaves beyond where it looses grip.

The problem, even in Norway where we have to pass an ice-driving course before we get our licenses, is that people (like the author of this article) assume you can drive on snow without ever loosing grip. This causes two issues:

Firstly, ESP systems will not help you avoid getting stuck. In fact just the opposite, the ESP will prevent the car from maintaining momentum by applying the brakes at the first sign of a slide. You have to keep the car moving and sliding if you want to get up steep hills on snow :)

Secondly, when the car does loose grip, people don't know what to do! Snow/ice driving is all about allowing the car to flow on the surface, predicting and correcting slides. In fact it is like high performance driving on tarmac, just at lower speeds ;) This is why, during summer the boy racers crash most, but during winter the careful but unskilled drivers are most likely to end up in a ditch.

viking84 January 14, 2010 10:42 AM

@misha

I was sceptical too, have never had larger than 16" winter tires. I'll admit I chose the 18's purely for aesthetic reasons but have concluded now that hard suspension has the exact same benefits during winter as it does during summer; it keeps your tires in contact with the surface as much as possible :) The width is also positive on hard snow and ice. On slush you have a point though, you need to consider the added lift. However slush-performance is mostly affected by tread depth. Went from old 205/60-16's to my current brand new 235 section tires, and the improvement was incredible :)

bomb January 14, 2010 11:12 AM

"But modern soft-roaders come with road tyres whose treads clog at the first sign of snow, leaving you little better than four driven slicks"

No they don't!! Just because your mate's old CR-V was wearing summer tyres doesn't mean they all do! I've got a current shape CR-V which has standard fit m+s tyres and has proved unstoppable in recent poor conditions.

Cornering and braking braking can still be dodgy, but then it doesn't really matter what you're driving, but because you have greater grip from the winter tyre to start with it's less pronounced.

I always turn the VSA off in bad conditions so know exactly what the car is doing. Driving a 4007 in FWD and relying on the ESP can only mask what the car is doing.

Going out in terrible weather because you have FWD is not safe either!! Certainly less safe than having 4x4!!

What an odd article....

deppi January 14, 2010 11:29 AM

I find this article and most comments on TV these days completely misleading! As some other people mentioned in here you only need 1 simple thing to drive on snow:

WINTER TYRES!

This would work on any car.

I grew up in Italy and lived in Switzerland for many years and drove all sorts of cars in the snow even up the mountain to go to ski. I have always managed to drive and get anywhere with snow tyres. If after that we want to discuss how much better you can make it we can talk about it for hours but basically in general (to keep it simple) a light car with skinny winter tyres and 4WD with supple suspension and electronics is your best bet.

But please someone in the UK has to tell the general public that in winter esepcially when conditions are difficult that they just need to change to winter tyres and drive sensibly!!!!!

ptwist January 14, 2010 11:49 AM

Four wheel drive adds four wheel engine braking as well as four wheel acceleration so has to be safer as long as you drive within limits and don't expect 4 wheel drive to change the laws of physics.

For back to back proof of my own, my XC70 with 4WD and standard-fit Pirelli Scorpion M&S tyres means I can get out of the house and get back up the snowy hills to home easily. And my Focus C-max with normal tyres and 2WD has been really struggling on the same roads to start, stop or go round corners. (and yes, this is one of the few times of the year when I actually prefer driving the XC70...!)

GaryW January 14, 2010 12:04 PM

@misha1973:

"- roadholding in bends dependes more on suspension setup, height of center of gravity and weight of the car, than number of wheels driven (this applies for 4WD and FWD. RWD on summer tyres is rubish on snow or ice)"

Erm, precisely why is RWD on summer tyres rubbish for roadholding on bends (or should I say more rubbish than FWD or 4WD)?  I agree it's a challenge if you're trying to accelerate (including going up hills), but at constant speed in a bend it should be just as fine (or not) as FWD and 4WD.

williamssam January 14, 2010 12:45 PM

@viking84

Even in the summer softer suspension will allow the wheels to stay in contact with the road better, and this is more true in low grip conditions such as a wet or snowy/icy road, where you want less lateral weight transfer and more compliance over bumps. This is why racing cars run softer spring rates in the wet.

viking84 January 14, 2010 12:55 PM

@GaryW

When holding a constant speed through a corner you are in fact applying torque to the driven wheels (if you engage the clutch you will slow down). In a rear drive car a loss of grip will be more of an issue than in a fwd car. An AWD car will be much less likely to let go, however when it does you'd better be awake :)

@Misha

I see your point :) It could be the reduced body-roll that I find benefitial rather than an increase in grip. Controlling weight transfer is essential when driving briskly in slippery conditions, and tighter suspension will make this easier, and maybe compensate for a slight reduction of traction. Just a theory of course :)

eddyesi January 14, 2010 12:56 PM

Daft article, agreed you still cant beat physics, and a 2WD still brakes 4 wheels same as a 4WD

But 4WD do generally brake and steer better in slippy conditions, if for no other reason than they are designed with that in mind, and do more testing in those conditions, so the ABS and traction/stability control will work better in low grip too

Also being a little heavier they have a little more traction for a given tyre size. Extra mass does have some negatives, but overall its a little better

That said the second best is a mid sized 2wd diesel hatch, lots of weight over the front wheels and long gearing make life a lot easier. Really dont want an MX5 or Elise!

viking84 January 14, 2010 1:30 PM

@eddyEsi

I'm in a bit of an argumentative mood today it seems ;) More weight is always bad on snow/ice. The minor increase in friction is more than offset by the added kinetic energy of a heavy vehicle. In fact I'd go as far as to say an MX5 with a limited slip diff is safer than a 2.7 tonne Discovery at the same speed around a given corner (yes I've driven both on snow). Of course the Disco will be better (thanks to 4x4 and ground clearance) at getting unstuck if you do end up in a ditch ;)

The best (easiest and safest) winter car I've ever driven is a Suzuki Swift 4x4 :D Light weight, predictable AWD system and forgiving handling meant it was pretty fool proof. Not as fun as my turbo Quattro though ;)

Ski Kid January 14, 2010 1:43 PM

I went up to carsington last week and my Landrover Freelander was superb I must have passed 40 vehicles there and back stuck either going uphill or downhill inc Mondeos and Audis.I also used the hill descent control going down a steep icy hill and was very pleased. You always should drive carefully and not to the limits but the Landrovers are really in a world of thier own for comfort  and safety in this weather.

jskater January 14, 2010 2:18 PM

As a driver of an Impreza sport - light, 4wd, relatively tall tyre sidewalls and decent steering feel - I wouldn't have swapped it for anything in this cold snap, even though the treadblocks filled with snow etc.

Yes I had understeer, oversteer and a combination of me and abs led to a very low speed meeting with a 206 but to suggest that 4wd is not of benefit in snow is folly.

I was lumbering up a side street looking for a parking space and spied a chap who was maybe twice my age wheel spinning his way from a space, so I got out and offered him a push.

"You are in second aren't you mate?" I queried.

He replied cheerfully "No, first!"

As I rolled my eyes he selected second and slithered away. Now 4wd and drivier training and we all might get somewhere. Even in snow.

misha1973 January 14, 2010 5:43 PM

@GariW

I should agree here with viking84, regarding RWD roadholding in bends. Keeping a constant speed may suffice, but that speed should be 10-20km/h lower than in FWD car.

Very unscientific winter test: try pulling a sledge on snow, it it would probably follow you. But if you push it, it may wander left or right. Apparently, it easier to keep direction if you pulll (like FWD), then if you push (like RWD) an object on slippery surface.

Around here I see a lot of old Ladas, on summer tyres, going very slowly on snow and ice, so it can work, but I wouldn't recommend that kind of "pleasure" :)

@williamssam

100% agree with you on matter of softer suspension.

@ viking84

we are both in argumentative mood today! :)  

Harder suspension does give better weight transfer, at loss of some compliance and ultimately grip. But sometimes a bit of body roll in bends in winter may be beneficial, just to give more info about possible excess of speed in bends.

Actually, when you have proper winter tyres, it's mostly matter of personal taste whether you want more or less body roll.

Theory of winter driving is 90% related to practise, but other 10% of cases seem completely illogic,  and yet...a friend of mine still drives his Citroen 2CV evey winter, on tall summer tyres and is very happy with it, even in deep snow. Granted, he does have some weird agricultural tyres with deep thread:)

Basically, we all agree that proper driver's training is the most important. I reckon couple of lessons in some Finnish rally school would really help everyone learn how to drive in winter :)

softlove010 February 27, 2010 6:23 PM

hello dear friend

How are you today , i know that all is well with you

My name is Gift ,I am a female,I was impressed when i saw your profile  and will like to establishe a long lasting relationship with you. In addition,i will like you to reply me through my private e mail box here is it;(giftbaby09@yahoo.com) Thanks waiting to hear from you soonest.

Gift

Please contact me with my Email address here is it.(giftbaby09@yahoo.com)