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kdwilcox October 29, 2009 2:49 PM

Very well said Vicky,keep up the good work

babe.

streaky October 29, 2009 2:57 PM

"At what point does the average punter walk into a showroom and get so confused by the variety of niche ‘hatchback/SUV/coupe/MPV’ options that they give up and go and buy a Ford Mondeo? Quite often, I reckon."

I'm just amazed at the vast number of models many manufacturers build these days.  Take Mercedes - they used to have just two ranges, the E class equivalent and the S class.  I've lost count of all the classes they offer now, and they'll soon run out of letters to name them.  I always thought that manufacturers needed economies of scale to be profitable so how do they manage to produce so many low volume variants?  I know that they use relatively few platforms to underpin their vast ranges but they still have to tool up for more body panels, facias and interiors etc.  I suppose they've costed it all properly but I wonder if they are wasting money, and therefore keeping prices high, just to have an offering in every conceivable market niche.

bentleyboy October 29, 2009 2:59 PM

Got a Titanium X New shape Mondeo - could not justify the extra wonga wanted for one of these BMs, even if I liked it!

Mondeo eats the miles, very comfortable, but will hustle quite happily if you feel in the mood. Excellent buy as a three month old car perhaps saving a lot of cash!

pSynrg October 29, 2009 3:03 PM

The car of course is excellent. The problem is really BMW and others following similar traits that are trying to tell us a niche exists where one doesn't.

It's pure marketing over substance. Look at the car in the cold light of day and it is a decent 5 series hatchback. But they can't call it that because hatchback's are just too down market in perceived image and they couldn't get away with the price.

I blame Audi - they started all this with their upmarket hatches (Avant???) and look at them now. Even they are attempting to reinvent something they've already done and trying to sell it again (A4 hatchback anyone or worth more as an A5 Sportback - cringe?)

I like the 5 "GT" it's a nice motor as they say. But I detest the 'lifestyle' accusations from the marketeers. The car should fit into my life, not the other way round!

Colonel Snappy October 29, 2009 3:40 PM

It's a bit more than just a 5-series hatchback. I had a good look at it at the weekend, and the interior is nothing short of a masterpiece, not least because there's so much space - you don't just feel "not too cramped" as is the case in most cars, but that you have lots of room to spread out: it's like flying business instead of economy.

It was also interesting to notice that - without exception - everyone who looked at it checked out the back seats first.

superstevie October 29, 2009 3:51 PM

I was in a BMW showroom last weekend, and they had one in there. It is MASSIVE! granted, I'd just stepped out of my smart car, a Mini seems big, but the 5GT just seemed to me too big. I do not think its a particularly good looking car either. it looks very awkward from most angles.

I agree that the interior would be a lovely place to sit, but again, I found it too big for my tastes. It just seems to be big because it can be, rather than out of design. I think the forth coming 3GT will maybe be a better bet.

In saying that, i'd rather have a normal estate than either

theop October 29, 2009 5:04 PM

agreed with Vicky 90% ( I just wouldn't have a Mondeo).

Super stevie, I saw a GT too.... It is indeed very big - seems longer than either an X5 or X6... Bit like an Audi Q7.

I would have a 535d or i estate any day, or a used Rangie TDV8, or .........etc

theop October 29, 2009 5:06 PM

also the nose of it looks too close to a 1 series (a bit better in the flesh though to be fair)

Apparently they will make a 3 series GT based on the next 3..... that will be a big seller me thinks...

manicm October 29, 2009 5:21 PM

As a cut-price 7-series it makes a LOT more sense and much more interesting to look at.

Why not compare a 7-series to a Mondeo as well? Or heck a Roller as well???

Frankly you've lost the plot here Vicky.

RacingPuma October 29, 2009 5:51 PM

Most people's transport needs can be met by a Mondeo (or Focus or Golf) - that's not the point.  If we all bought cars for practical transport reasons, most car journalists and car manufacturers would be out of work.

The real debate is about people buying a car that fits their lifestyle, even if it's not as good value as a Mondeo.  

Quite simply the 5 GT is a luxury car for people with a life.  If you can afford a 7 series (or S Class or Jag XJ or Lexus LS) but you're the sort of person who needs to park in a field (whether at a motor race venue, a music festival or a horse race meeting) or need to chuck your sailing or rowing gear in the back of your car, then the 5 series GT was made for you.

Overdrive October 29, 2009 6:35 PM

Granted, I'd take an estate, BMW's own 5-series Touring for example, over the GT too.

But, extending your "why not just stick to a Mondeo" point further, one could also argue that there is very little a Jaguar XF can do, in day to day driving, that a Mondeo can't do very nearly as well, for a lot upfront cash and running costs. So, how come you're not confused by the existence of the XF?

My point is, what's wrong with having more choice and variety in the market place, especially for those who need or want something a bit different, Vicky?

Not every car HAS TO make sense to every single buyer, or conform to everyone's idea what is sensible....or does it?

Overdrive October 29, 2009 6:37 PM

Just read RacingPuma's post, after posting mine and agree with it pretty much word for word.

I'm just surprised that these points have to be made to a motoring journalist of all people.

superstevie October 29, 2009 6:58 PM

Surely the point Vicky was trying to make was are their enough people with the need for a car like this that a standard "normal" car couldn't deal with?

Old Toad October 30, 2009 5:40 AM

I cant see the point of these niche cars either but they do offer something different if that is what you want.

In the cold light of day sales and taxes will decide whether they survive or not . Cant really see this or the X6 surviving in the UK but they love em in the Middle East where petrol costs peanuts. BMW probably builds on prospective world sales not just the UK.

chandrew October 30, 2009 6:56 AM

Surely it's just about providing a choice, which in my books is a good thing.

We've quite quickly gone from a time when car manufacturers all built the same thing - "you want an executive car - well that will have to be either a 4 door saloon or an estate" - to one where there are more different options.  Competition meant producing a better 4 door saloon.  Now they realise they can compete by producing something different.

What we had was a world where they were producing what the majority of people wanted  and now we are entering a time when everyone can find something that meets their needs.  In the old world if you wanted an executive hatchback you had to forget it.

I guess it makes automotive journalism a bit harder.  It's harder to compare 'a' to 'b' when something is unique.  

Vicky Parrott October 30, 2009 12:21 PM

I didn't actually suggest that everyone should stick to a Mondeo. I'm all for variety  - it's what makes cars interesting, after all.

I'm merely questioning how many average buyers choose conventional and well-known models because they can't figure out what the purpose of a crossover is.

My point is that the 5-series GT, excellent though it is in many respects, crosses so many different classes that it's difficult to really pinpoint what you'd buy it for.

I am also well aware that most people's motoring needs can be fulfilled by a Mondeo or even a Focus, and that most cars are chosen purely out a subjective liking for the car.

If the 5-Series GT is, as Racing Puma suggests, "for people with a life" (people with a Mondeo don't have a life?) who do lots of outdoor activities and go off road occasionally,  would they not be better off with either an estate or an SUV?

I'm not sure that the BMW 5-Series GT hasn't lost the drivability of an estate and the practicality of an SUV and ended up somewhere vague in the middle.

After all, if providing choice is all that's required of a car, success is guaranteed.

But of course, the 5-Series GT is extremely comfortable and good value as a cut-price, slightly less roomy 7-series, and I have absolutely no doubt that it will sell for all those reasons as well simply because the buyer likes it.

tonym911 October 30, 2009 12:22 PM

'I'm just surprised that these points have to be made to a motoring journalist of all people.' I'm surprised you appear to have forgotten what a blog is meant to do – . stimulate debate.

Lee23404 October 30, 2009 1:56 PM

While I'm not completely sold on the GT I find these crossover's quite interesting. I often find cars just like the Mondeo a little dull, MPV's hatefull and while I like some SUV's I can't really justify the extra cost.

So for me cars like the GT and say Peugeot 3008 offer something just a little bit more interesting than the norm. Whether there's enough people out there who think the same in order to generate sales is another matter.

Without meaning to contradict myself I also suspect that 3 years in one of these will be enough time to make me realise that the estate car I have isn't that bad after all.

Overdrive October 30, 2009 2:00 PM

Tony,

Point taken. It's just that it seems these days every time a car that is somewhat different to the norm or the conventional is launched it gets lambasted and accused of being "pointless", "wasted of money and resources", "surplus to needs" etc etc. Not saying this is what Vicky is suggesting (especially as she took time to clarify her point), but it has become a prevalent moan across many online disuccsion forums.

Of course in some cases (and maybe in the case of the GT too) criticisms are perfectly valid and well founded. But just occasionally it'd be nice to see credit given to those car makers that think outside the box, instead of the usual litany of groans and overly negative reactions.

tonym911 October 30, 2009 2:19 PM

Roger all that Overdrive. There's no right or wrong on this particular topic I reckon. It's all pretty subjective. It just seems that occasionally people forget one of blogging's main purposes, which is to provoke a discussion. The blogger isn't necessarily always expressing a personal view. You clearly understand that. I do believe however that there is nothing intrinsically wrong or bad about 'negativity' in forums. It's too easy to confuse negativity with honest criticism. Thanks in the main to the calculating greed of self-help writers (often American) we attach far too much significance to the idea of being 'positive' all the time IMO.

roadtester October 30, 2009 2:49 PM

Well I hope RacingPuma checks his spec sheet before he takes his 5 GT into a field - it's strictly 2WD (RWD in fact) so it's going to get stuck real quick, especially given its weight and so on.

FWIW think VP has the car summed up pretty much perfectly.

RacingPuma October 30, 2009 2:57 PM

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, Vicky.

I did not mean to imply that Mondeo owners do not have a life - hence my "luxury car" preface.

What I did say and mean is that luxury saloons are far too compromised for "people with a life".   I say that as one of very few people who has regularly taken a Lexus LS to music festivals and motor racing events (I would never take the Racing Puma onto a field).  Also, a 4x4 is a bit over the top for someone who only wants to park on a field occasionally.

For someone who wants luxury, style, lots of luggage space and a bit of extra ground clearance for parking on a field the 5 GT has found a good niche, in my opinion.

Personally, I struggle to understand what sort of people will buy the BMW X6, not the 5 GT.

tonym911 October 30, 2009 3:10 PM

We can navel-gaze as much as we want about who'll buy what but it's a fair bet that manufacturers don't enter into new vehicle development without being sure that they can create a market for it. All BMW is doing really is responding to an increasingly niche-based world.

RobotBoogie October 30, 2009 3:43 PM

Not sure about the 5GT and field argument. Almost every car I have ever owned has been capable of being parked in a field at musical festivals, national trust events, car boot sales, etc, including all kinds of saloons. Can't see that the extra smidge of ground clearance that a 5GT boasts over a standard shaped car is a particularly convincing reason for people who "have a life" to buy one.

As far as all these new niches go, it's difficult to see much success in store. I report this without comment but there is an X6 owner on the periphery of my social circle whose car has become a laughing stock. I've kept out of the general ribbing but the general view of his mates appears to be that the car is, well, silly. Even the blokes who aren't interested in cars can see that a 4x4 coupe makes no sense. It's become an expensive embarassment.

In comparison to the X6, the 5GT looks like a masterclass in practicality but I think Vicky might have a point. Faced with a 5GT in a showroom, the reaction of many a buyer may simply be non-plussed.

RacingPuma October 30, 2009 3:44 PM

@roadtester

I do not want or need the compromise of 4wd (weight, fuel consumption, CO2 tax) just to cover the very slight chance of a mudbath.

On the very rare occasions that happens at festivals, you'll find that the RAC, AA and local farmers come to the rescue.

What I do need to park on a field is an extra inch or two more ground clearance than many modern saloons provide.

If everyone who occasionally needed to park on a field (at anything from car boot sales to polo matches) insisted on 4wd, the waste to society would be enormous.

RobotBoogie October 30, 2009 3:45 PM

Or, and as a PS, Tony's comments about manufacturers being sure that they can create a niche for a new model. Well, who was it who said that market research just tells you what a customer thinks they want. Remember the Edsel?

tonym911 October 30, 2009 4:37 PM

Ha ha yes indeed but I'm sure you'll agree that research techniques are a bit more sophisticated these days. And making cars isn't the licence to print money that it was in the '50s, especially in the States, when GM had 5000 people in the r&d dept ALONE turning out brilliantly mad concept cars that weren't required to justify themselves on any level.

tonym911 October 30, 2009 4:51 PM

What Car?'s Reader Test Team went over the 5GT in the October issue. Some did give vent to the 'who will buy it' argument but other views were more interesting. One said he liked it because he really loved saloons but couldn't live with them because he needed the extra space his estate provided. He also liked the coupe looks + hatch practicality. That's one niche. Another chap liked the specialness of the interior and its driver-focused nature (for a car in this semi-utilitarian market). That's a niche. Another liked the split tailgate idea. Another niche. The impression is that even a small number of quite specific individual features (or even just one) can turn prospects into potential buyers. It's an extension of bespoke car manufacture, and a reflection of the power of niche marketing.

roadtester October 30, 2009 7:32 PM

As far as niches go, I think Mercedes may have already demonstrated that this niche doesn't exist with the R Class. The closest car in concept to the 5GT - albeit a couple of brackets down-market of where the 5GT sits - was the Vauxhall Signum with its roomy four-seater approach.

One thing that's interesting about the 5GT is that it probably previews a lot of stuff that's going to be in the next mainstream 5 when that turns up - the eight-speed auto, the new straight six petrol in the 535, the general cabin architecture, super-crisp head-up display and so on - all of which are outstandingly good, even if the 5GT itself is difficult to pigeonhole.

tonym911 October 30, 2009 9:36 PM

The Signum is an interesting example. We may end up looking back at it and seeing it as an opportunity missed, a vehicle ahead of its time, or a concept that needed a more confident brand than Vauxhall to pull it off. Or maybe all three.

Overdrive October 30, 2009 10:29 PM

One problem the Signum, IMO anyway, was that I could barely tell the few I did see, apart from a Vectra estate.

At least the 5 series-GT looks distinctive, if not exactly attractive, and you'd recognize it immediately if you saw one.

24JTD October 31, 2009 10:19 AM

The point that seems to have been missed here is the seating position, ease of access and loading height; it's a practical 'premium' car for the elderly / infirm etc.  4 x 4 vehicles are often too high to get into and don't drive as well as a conventional car.  

BMW are the first to do it in the premium sector, but Fiat did it in 2005 with the new Croma (which did poorly in the UK but sells well on the continent).

The UK is only one market, others have different needs - even so, I believe these will sell.

roadtester October 31, 2009 11:42 AM

But the 5GT isn't that practical - the sloping rear roofline, for example, means that the elderly/infirm will have a hard time stooping to get into it.

24JTD October 31, 2009 5:05 PM

Many older folks only ever carry grandchildren / children in the rear seats - well the ones I know of do anyway.  As long as the front is easy to get into (check) and the boot is easy to load (check) then job done.  How many young executive types with children will choose this over an XF or 5-series saloon / touring?

It's a BMW remember, image is everything.

RednBlue October 31, 2009 7:35 PM

"I think I’d just buy a Mondeo"????

This mag is pathetic. Ford products are considered terribly average in the rest of the world. Autocar tries to send a sort of subliminal message in 90% of its articles. "Fords are best of the pack, Fords are cool, Fords are better to drive".

Having driven several Ford cars, and having owned a couple, I think this is massively misleading.

Sajid Yacoob November 5, 2009 9:43 PM

By offering such a wide ranging but strange product line up - isn't BMW just moving sales between its own models rather than getting incremental sales? As instead of a 5 series estate someone will rather buy a 5 series GT - but net impact to BMW is the same.......???