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Do It July 28, 2010 10:50 AM

I'd make Alonso and Massa dress as clowns for rest of the year and exclude them from the championship for the rest of the season. Ferrari would be allowed to replace them but only with Badoer and Fisichella.............

jterrier July 28, 2010 11:04 AM

I'd do nothing; its a highly intelligent and calculated thing that they did, and the FIA have stung them in the only way appropriate. Ferrari have got a very quick car, but have only half a season left in which to overhaul everyone; they need every opportunity to do that, and its alonso that is most likely to bring them a championship, so they just took a pragmatic view and did what was needed. The only really bad bit was the bad acting in the press conferences afterwards; they should have just fronted it up, said 'this is what we did, and heres why', and then stood back.

Having said this, someone on tv did suggest a rule of no team orders until the last 5 races or something; that might be good but impossible to police.

Splash n Dash July 28, 2010 11:05 AM

When teams order their drivers NOT to race each other at the closing stages of a GP is this not manipulating the results? They effectively tell one driver to stay behind the other but for some reason the "fans" don't complain about it then- maybe due to the fact its not stoked up by the media coverage (which can be classed as thinnly disgusied Ferrari bashing in the non specialist press i.e. people who don't know what they are talking about).

The rest of the grid complaining is a bit rich. They are against team orders in principle so it will be interesting to see how fast they change their tune when rule 39.1 is scrapped. If they are against it now nothing should change in their own minds when the rule is gone.

Fred The Fiend July 28, 2010 11:06 AM

I agree that Ferrari should be stripped of their points for Germany, as should both drivers. I'd like to suggest a stronger punishment for Alonso, as I am really getting tired of his prima donna act.

While I'm at it, I'd have a word with Vettel about his starts - he has a habit of trying to force the other front row car into the wall. He did it to Webber at Silverstone, and did it again to Alonso - both times he came off second best.

Juzoik July 28, 2010 11:17 AM

@ Do it.

you're cracking me up. Fisi and Badoer? well that's a well and trully hopeless pair. it'd be fun to watch though.

Now back to the point, i hate Ferrari and i don't like Alonso just as much but everyone understands why they did it. if only they'd come out and admit that much other then the whole annoying episode of them trying to blow smoke up our backsides and so much as laying the blame on ''Massa's decision''. that's what's annoying me the most. plus Alonso coming out and saying it the team result was what mattered most and not which car came first, i'm sorry but unless i actually watched a different race, he whinged so much the team had to move Massa aside while they still had the 1-2.

Well as for punishment, i'm not sure what to think. stripping them of the points would be a bit harsh but if that's the way it's going to be they might as well get rid of that rule if they can't police it properly.

Walking July 28, 2010 11:21 AM

In this case the fairest solution would be to reverse the result.  I think you only need to clarify the rules and not always add further punishment.  Next time the team or drivers can decide the consequences of actually racing each other.  The debate and outcome around rule 39.1 should only effect future races if the rule is changed.  

Pistachio July 28, 2010 11:22 AM

I would make Alonso, Domenicalli get a couple of brooms and sweep the next track from start to finish to sharpen their minds about why they are there.

Bit like community service really and it will serve as a warning to others.

WFC Holden July 28, 2010 11:28 AM

More interesting, perhaps, would be to do it this way: refund the $100,000 fine on the grounds that everyone cheats not just Ferrari; leave rule 39.1 in place on the grounds that no-one pays it any attention whatever (unless a team they don't like manages to steal an advantage); and then raise ticket prices by, say, 25% because after all these years of bitching it would be an interesting piece of research to see how much punishment and nonsense F1 enthusiasts will volunteer for before finally accepting that the people who run F1 and compete in F1 do it for the money and really don't give a tinker's cuss for what the public thinks as long as they, the public, continue to hand over their hard-earned.

Straight Eight Pool Shark July 28, 2010 11:31 AM

Walking July 28, 2010 11:21 AM

Yeap, and let's reverse the result of Hamilton overtaking Kovaleinen in in '08 too! That makes Massa World Champion.......... 'Walking' now thinks: oh, actually no, bad idea hmmmmm

WFC Holden July 28, 2010 11:33 AM

Oh no. Now look what you've done. Walking has come over all confused..

bentleyboy July 28, 2010 11:36 AM

Simples. Just reverse the drivers points, and strip Ferrrari of the Constructors points.

Easy peasy. And this from a life long ashamed Ferrari fan. Then abolish the stupid rule...immediately.

Robbijay July 28, 2010 11:41 AM

Disqualify them from the championship for BLATENT cheating. Smedley wanted the world to know what was going on (if he didn't he could simply said Fernando is F***ing faster than you- then it wouldn't have been broadcast), and so did Massa or he wouldn't have made it so obvious.

Juzoik July 28, 2010 11:42 AM

@Straight Eight Pool Shark

and while we're at that, lets reverse the result where Massa handed victory to Kimi in 07 and Hamilton would be champion

and why not reverse the result of Spa 08 where Massa inherited the win from Hamilton after he cut the corner when Kimi run him off and crashed shortly afterwards. that victory which would have given Massa the WDC on the countback of number of victories.

still wanna carry on reversing results?

Pistachio July 28, 2010 11:43 AM

Why abolish the rule, it is meant to be there to create honest racing otherwise you get No2 keeping the cars back until No1 gets his act together...this is why they brought the rule in to stop this kind of thing happening.

It is a good rule and all it needs is a bit of honesty which means grown men need to grow up and stop W***y waggling and start racing hard and fast.

Stotty July 28, 2010 11:45 AM

The rule exists so they'll probably get stripped of the points.

But the rule itself is stupid.

The teams should be allowed to do what they want as far as their own cars are concerned... afterall, they put the cars on the grid and pay the drivers wages.

Anyone who expects drivers from the same team to compete wheel to wheel in this day and age is either being too idealistic or is completely niave.

montgomery July 28, 2010 11:47 AM

Ferrari handled the situation incredibly badly but they did the right thing in my opinion. I feel sorry for Massa but at the end of the day Alonso has outperformed him all season and is the one who still has a realistic shot at the championship.

Schumacher's comments on the incident made the most sense of all- Ferrari are looking at the big picture(the championship) and not one race- he admitted that what happened between him in Austria back in 2002 was probably wrong but considering the championship standings this year Ferrari made the right decision.

Ferrari should have got on the radio to Felipe and said"slow, save fuel" and it would have finished there. Instead Massa and Smeadley wanted to make it clear that team orders were being enforced which I find very unprofessional and childish. They both know the policies and politics of Ferrari very well- if they don't like them then they should get out. At the end of the day Massa is lucky to have the seat he does- in Italy everybody expected him to be replaced by kubica next year.

RacingPuma July 28, 2010 11:49 AM

First and foremost, Ferrari must be judged against the rules as they exist in 2010 i.e. team orders are prohibited.  

Many people seem to think that because team orders were once allowed (pre 2002) then it is still OK.  This is ridiculous.  If it was a valid defence that what you did used to be allowed, then all the teams would be using 1000bhp+ turbo engines because they were once allowed!!

I think that Ferrari should lose the 43 Constructors Championship points they scored in Germany and be fined €2m.

Rule 39.1 is virtually impossible to police so should be reviewed. I would like there to be no team orders, but realistically it is better to allow it to exist openly rather than happen in a murky way.

So, I would get rid of Rule 39.1 and allow team orders but force teams to declare their team order policy before the race so that the betting public were not cheated and the viewing public knew where they stood.

montgomery July 28, 2010 11:51 AM

I remember Todt getting on the radio to Alesi back in the "90s to let Berger through. Alesi flatly refused. Ferrari later gave him a heavy fine. He said it was money well spent. Alesi- what a legend.

Pistn Broke July 28, 2010 11:56 AM

rules are rules, right? what's the use of rules if they are simply going to be manipulated with the knowledge that there will only be a monetry fine for breaking them. like, as if, ferrari cares about the money

i'd ban domencialli from f1, just like briatore.

i'd throw ferrari out of the manufacturer's championship, just like mclaren was three years ago.

dock alonso the points for 1st.

dock massa the points for 2nd.

both drivers, know the rules, and they were party to the rule breaking, after all.

vettel would receive points for 3rd, but the points for 1st and 2nd shouldn't be reallocated.

why is everyone simply suggesting it is a stupid rule. it's a rule and it was broken. going on the harshness of recent decisions, ferrari can only expect to be thrown out of the championship. anything less would make the fia look like clowns (which they are of course).

montgomery July 28, 2010 12:02 PM

It's a stupid rule because it can't be enforced and because team-play has always been part of F1 anyway.

bentleyboy July 28, 2010 12:08 PM

Its only a "stupid rule" because most people that have watched F1 for a number of years know, or suspect, that team orders have been used in a lot of races over the years - so its only that Ferrari made it so plain in this race that their is an issue.

If you have almost every team manipulating the rule, then surely its better, safer, and fairer to the fans to know that it is going on, and then not get all wound up and cross when it happens.

Overdrive July 28, 2010 12:15 PM

Good one Steve Sutcliffe!

Clearly you felt there hadn't been enough vitriol thrown the way of Ferrari and Alonso and what should be done to them in a number of threads/articles already on this issue on the Autocar forum, so you thought not only would you weigh in with your own take on the issue, but also rabble rouse the usual suspects to come up with some more.

And that's fair enough! But can I ask if you did the same when in the Turkish GP Hamilton asked his team: "If I back off, is Jenson going to pass me or not?" McLaren's answer was: "No, Lewis. No", or in GP of France in 2008, where Heikki Kovalainen practically parked his car a mile before the hairpin to let Lewis Hamilton through?

944s2jock July 28, 2010 12:42 PM

While rules are rules most followers of F1 will understand why it was done Hell we were all waiting and wondering how the "call" would be made. What deserves to be punished is the stupid insensitive way they did it makng a mockery of the rules Where was the phrase agreed before the race to trigger Massa running wide and Alonso moving up a place? We'd all wonder but proving it would have been a different matter

Bigger fine & points deduction deserved

beachland2 July 28, 2010 12:51 PM

i think the punishment should be far higher than the last punishment as there are rules in place now. when they got fined £1m and excluded from the running there were even any team orders rules in place...

so i think £5million fine and some FIA motorsport bans for employees/drivers. and classification exclusion and 3 race ban for ferrari.

which ironically may make them a better team for 2011 with 3 months of development focused for next year rather than this year.

on that thought, i think the best punishment for them and in our interest the audience is for fearri to carry on as normal with just a financial fine, plus a 50% reduction of winter testing for 2011 season, putting them at a mid grid position for the whole of the next season in terms of car pace and performance, but still interesting for us as we watch top drivers with not perfect cars.

ferrari v lotus battles in 2011

theGav July 28, 2010 12:52 PM

Seeing as we are trying to find a solution for a silly rule which was introduced for a valid reason why not try a silly solution

Run the first half of the race for team points only and the second half for driver points only

I said it was a silly solution, but it sure would open up a whole new avenue for confusion

deppi July 28, 2010 12:55 PM

I think Splash n Dash explained it perfectly! How can you say this is a team order and the other isn't?

The only mistake they have made is that they were not prepared in advance for Massa letting through Alonso. It would have been so simple to tell Massa to conserve fuel and Alonso would have passed it "better".

I really don't think there is anything that can be done to Ferrari on top of a fine to be honest! Some of you mention that Button and Hamilton raced in Turkey.....but up to a certain point! When the team told them both to save fuel (i.e. DO NOT PASS)

Let's be honest it always happens in EVERY team and it always will...... so do you punish Ferrari for having it done so badly and the silly charade at the end?

Massa can say 10000 times it was his decision to let Alonso pass and that's it.

deppi July 28, 2010 1:00 PM

@ beachland2

What a "clever" idea....

I think you also forgot to read what Steve said "Leaving aside the more vindictive desires you may have to see certain individuals suffer, what actions would you take?"

Evo_ermine July 28, 2010 1:00 PM

Give them a weight penalty. Nothing too major, maybe 500 kg.

PhilM4000 July 28, 2010 1:06 PM

I'd make all the teams disclose their driver contracts.  If there were any team orders contained therein that related to the race rather than parts allocation I would remove all constructors points achieved in the races they were in force for.  I would review the races and any race where no 1 driver passed no 2 driver all driver points would be removed for those races.  This would apply to Germany as well and the Ferrari situation.  

Pionir July 28, 2010 1:07 PM

I'd dock Ferrari's constructors points and leave it at that.  

I'd also give all parties concerned (drivers, engineers, team principles etc) a suspended sentence for bringing the sport into disrepute.  The problem is the pretending what happened wasn't team orders and that's bad for the sport.

Then I'd change the team orders rule so that team orders are allowed once the 2nd drive no longer has a mathematical chance of the title.

Finally I'd require all driver contracts to be inspected by the FIA and not allow any clauses requiring a team mate to give up a position.

beachland2 July 28, 2010 1:08 PM

"@ beachland2

What a "clever" idea....

I think you also forgot to read what Steve said "Leaving aside the more vindictive desires you may have to see certain individuals suffer, what actions would you take?""

was i being vindictive?

Broughster July 28, 2010 1:19 PM

How about enforcing a driver swap for the rest of the season? Massa goes to Mercedes and Schumacher goes back to Ferrari. This would give Rosberg a decent team mate and Alonso would also get what he deserves, who certainly wouldn't pull over for the greater glory of his team mate.

Pionir July 28, 2010 1:28 PM

It's also worth pointing out that Massa wasn't far behind Alonso (little more than a race win).

In backing Alonso at this stage, they're not acting in the team interests.  When they did the same thing in 1999 (Irvine let Schuie past in the French GP) it actually cost them the title after Irvine became their title contender.

Still, never let a good fact get in the way of a misconception!

Lesia44 July 28, 2010 1:42 PM

Nothing. I'd change the stupid rule that says you can't have team orders in a team game. Daft beyond belief.

freethinker July 28, 2010 1:44 PM

Steve, I very much respect you because you are obviously a real (sports) car (knowledgeable) fan but I'm not sure I would totally agree with our comments and suggestions.

F1 has completly changed since that agreement between Max and Bernie: it actually became a pure business, like any other professional sport and can hardly be called a sport. A good example of this is the Red Bull team which has very little to do, if any, with cars.  

On the opposite side you can notice that true sports cars manufacturers, Porsche as an example, stay away from this "circus"

Most people now tend to view F1 as a drivers championship. That is a normal evolution as part of this business-like abovementioned evolution. However there is still a constructors championship and some people remember the days when a driver could change cars during a race. Every time I watch a race on TV (as it has become almost impossible to attend a race  a get close to the cars in the paddock unless you are an invited VIP) I am horrified to see that the FIA trailer insists on cars having accidents. Is this the kind of show the FIA wants to promote ? Are we back to the Rome days ? Do we want the drivers to suffer, or posibly die, like the gladiators in the past ?

And so on, and so on.

In essence things are very different from what they used to be and the overall direction that F1 is taking (including most of the techincal rules, and others) may appeal to a greater audience and generate more money, like pro football, but is less and less interesting for real enthusiasts.  

So may be the vision implied by your suggestions goes in the right (business) direction but please call it "new F1" and join me in wishing that Ferrari gets a severe punishing for doing rather openly what so many have done in the past and reacts to that by getting out of this Barnum style thing nowadays called F1.

If one talks just about business Ferrari does not need at all to participate to F1 to sell their cars. Are Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Jaguar, Maserati, and many others participating to F1 and do they sell cars ? Who believes that Lotus F1 has the slightest connection to the visions that Colin CHAPMAN had ? Does RENAULT F1 have  any connection to RENAULT road cars ?

F1 another area just spoiled by greedy people ?

amble July 28, 2010 2:14 PM

Like others, I'd reverse the drivers points result and deduct Ferrari's constructors points for Germany.  As a Ferrari fan this would upset me but they were very cheeky or showed a blatant disregard for the rules - depending on your point of view. Whether this was to make a statement or not this practice shouldn't be tolerated or encouraged.

Then I'd scrap rule 39.1 and allow team orders in the future.

breza July 28, 2010 2:32 PM

Rule 39.1 must be scrapped. Yeah, F1 is a strict business, but it makes all the fans look like bunch of idiots. Not just fans, but "Number 2" drivers also...

Ferrari points from Santander Grand Theft Germany must be erased.

Alonso is the biggest F1 cheater of all times, and "Waterboy" Massa didn't deserve any of this.

Team orders are present from the first days of F1, but no one except Ferrari pushes them in our faces in such disgusting manner.

Sanctions, sanctions, oh where art thou?

Griffin911 July 28, 2010 2:53 PM

Banning team orders was designed to make the drivers in a team actually race each-other, rather than saying "go on through, dear chap".

The whole point of F1 is racing, believe it or not, so i think the rule should stay.

As Ferrari broke that rules, pretty blatantly, refuse to accept any responsibility and seem incapable of showing remorse of their actions, AND have brought the sport into disrepute (AGAIN), I would ban them for three races, with a further two-year ban suspended for years, to be dropped if they get through those two years without team-orders (they'd find that hard).

I'd also strip them of the points from Germany and disqualify them from the constructors championship.

What will really happen? Probably a fine of a few million, which is pocket change to Ferrari. Don't expect nothing more or less.

MattDB July 28, 2010 2:56 PM

Stripping Ferrari of points would be pointless.  Unlike the Renault/Briatore debacle where their manipulations changed the outcome of everybodies race, Ferrari's actions did not make any difference to any other team and all other drivers finished in the same positions they would have done regardless.  All Ferrari did was rob poor Massa and deliver a poor show to real fans.  If you dock the points, do you then promote everyone else by 2 places, is so this would and could make a big difference fo the championship between red bull and Maclaren and Ferraris offence doesn't warrant that

deppi July 28, 2010 3:25 PM

@ breza:

"Team orders are present from the first days of F1, but no one except Ferrari pushes them in our faces in such disgusting manner."

So basically you are saying that if teams cheat but not in a blatant way it's ok?

pa1nkiller July 28, 2010 3:33 PM

Get rid of fuel & tyre restrictions to reintroduce multiple pit-stop strategies that would give drivers, who don't have the ability to overtake on-track, an opportunity gain a posiiton.

Prevent tactical communication between the pit crews of team mates so that one driver's whinging gets no further than his own pit crew.

deppi July 28, 2010 3:42 PM

I would actually love for all radio communication between driver and team to be banned during the race....but it's obviously not feasible nowdays :-(

RednBlue July 28, 2010 3:44 PM

What Would I do to Ferrari? Just tell'em to say next time "save fuel" instead of "Fernando is faster than you".

That's the way other teams give orders to their drivers.

I do not understand why there's so much hypocrisy. McLaren gives team orders. Redbull too. Dave Coulthard said it quite clearly last sunday. Ok, I understand it. It's just because we are talking about Ferrari. Sad, but true.

Did not see nasty comments about what happened to Hamilton recently (safety cars, running out of fuel after pole position, dangerous moves in front of Petrov or crazy releases after pit stops). Maybe just because he's "our boy"? Yes.

RobotBoogie July 28, 2010 4:01 PM

I think the root argument is this: it is a race and if you take away the racing element, then you are left with nothing. Ferrari should be punished hard enough to dissuade anyone else from doing this which is presumably to ensure that they don't win the Championship this year.

dedly July 28, 2010 4:09 PM

The fine means nothing to Ferrari. I'd just swap the points allocated

between Alonso & Massa - ie 25 for Massa & 18 to Alonso. Negates

their objective.

Tell them if they do it again, the same thing will happen. Trying racing

to the finish...

deppi July 28, 2010 4:44 PM

RednBlue

TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

Thank you for an honest comment!

leojk July 28, 2010 5:12 PM

Either,

1. Drop the driver's championship, just keep the constructors - F1 is a 'team sport' after all, or

2. One car per team, or

3. Anything to give us a decent race!

brinardi July 28, 2010 5:23 PM

What you suggest team points deduction but followed by a swift abolition of the rules seems most likely...

BUT if teams are allowed team orders back then total transparency to the public is needed as they cannot manipulate the race order but keep lying to the public that both drivers are equal or disguise an instructed pass as an "incident" such as an extra long pitstop or a gearbox problem - deceiving your fans is not really on is it? Some of the post-Hockenheim stuff directed from the paddock to the fans/outside world reminded me of BP's talk of "little people"...don't they realise how badly this plays to the wider public?

Forcing teams to state publicly whether they intend to use team orders each weekend and who is the beneficiary (i.e. who is no.1) may help to discourage them or at least open up the reality of what is going on. Perhaps the FIA should go as far as mandating the wording of the team instruction to allow another driver to pass so that it is clear to all viewers.

They also need to do something along the lines of a mandated fuel tank size and forcing teams to brim the tank at the start of the race as fuel-saving has also become another avenue for the closet imposition of team orders as well as turning races into tedious economy runs.

Peter Cavellini July 28, 2010 6:01 PM

The only way to get a level playing field would be to get rid of teams as such, by which i mean, one car, one driver,24 different teams on the grid,in theory there'd be no arguing and rattle throwing, the only sticking point would be engine supply, you know?, whose got the best customer engine?, preferential treatment etc, never mind in six months the hoo ha will be swept  under the carpet beside all the other skeletons and i'm afraid it'll be business as usual, F1?...R.I.P

SpiritOfSenna July 28, 2010 7:05 PM

I'd like to see the drivers racing each other, regardless of team. If they do so, they got more tv coverage so it's worthwhile, and they're supposedly the best drivers so they shouldn't take each other off.

As i see it, ferrari broke the rule so they must be punished - i'd say that what they did was a form of cheating, and therefore they should be appropriately fined. this isn't on the level of spygate but a $5 million fine for ferrari would seem to be in order. I doubt that there is a rule about following team orders so massa and alonso would not be fined. however, both cars should be stripped of their points for Germany, thereby elevating Vettel to 1st. As a McLaren fan, i wouldn't want to see Vettel advantaged, but that's life.

As for the future, here's what i'd do : -

- remove the offending rule, not because it's silly but because it is effectively unpoliceable.

- award constructor's championship points only to the first car in each team, thereby removing any advantage to the team that may result from persuading drivers to do a switcheroo.

- provide a standard FIA driver contract, specifically disallowing team orders, with only a few variables (eg salary, publicity requirements) being withheld from scrutiny.

- require all data from every race to be logged with the FIA immediately after the race, so that any claims that there was a problem with a car or the team was adopting a fuel-saving strategy can be subsequently verified.

- withdraw the super-licence from any driver who can be shown (by checking the data) to have deliberately acted in favour of his team-mate and against his own (racing) interests.

Dave Ryan July 28, 2010 7:10 PM

As the aim of the team order was to put the interests of the team first, and in light of the charge of bringing the sport into disrepute as per Article 151c and penalties applied for that charge, I would exclude Ferrari from the constructors' championship and fine them a suitably punitive amount in addition. That would reflect McLaren's punishment in 2007 on the 151c charge and what Renault would likely have got for their part in Singapore-gate had Briatore and Symonds not been ejected. Some form of suspended race ban might also be appropriate.

Unlike the majority of respondents, however, I would not get rid of Article 39.1, because to my mind the rule isn't the problem. It's the attitude of the teams going racing, just as it was a problem when Jackie Stewart tried to instigate wide-reaching changes in the 1970s on the grounds of safety. MotoGP and many other categories have demonstrated that you can go racing without needing team orders, and I have yet to hear a credible reason why F1 is an exception in this regard. If F1 still wants to call itself a sport the teams need to put the interests of the sport first, and that means having rules like Article 39.1 and actually abiding by them rather than paying lip service to them.

1948Wolseley July 28, 2010 7:36 PM

I'd strip Ferrari of their constructors' points from Germany, and possibly disallow them earning any constructors' points for an additional three races.

I'd let all drivers' points stand, and leave Article 39.1 in place.

david RS July 28, 2010 7:42 PM

Vacation (it is the season) for Alonso for one or two GP too.

Hurry up : no radio, no telemetry, no pit stops!

PS I was (am ?) not an anti Alonso.

chogster July 29, 2010 4:01 AM

I am not an Alonso or Massa fan in particular.  But my question is this.  Why has nobody trash talked Massa?  Why did he make it so obvious?  If he was a true team player, he should not have made the pass so obvious. He should have ran wide somewhere, stuffed a gearchange or something.

Maybe pre race there was no chat about it....in which case, Ferrari are to blame.  I mean, they qualified 2nd and 3rd.  It is not 100% certain that the driver in #2 spot will get in front.  

So if they did have the chat, why did they all have to go on about it and make it all public.  Smells fishy to me, but overall, Massa should have done it less obviously.

breza July 29, 2010 7:19 AM

You just don't get it... it was Ferrari's birthday present for Alonso, ahead of Hungarian GP.

Dear Fernando, we wish you neverending No.1 status... in HRT.

Hope you choke with the cake, you arrogant p****!!!

Peter Cavellini July 29, 2010 2:42 PM

But that's the problem Mr Ryan, rules!, too many rules,and breza, stop showing yourself up!, it's only motor racing, our survival doesn't depend on it, if you don't like it, why the hell are you still watching it?

My July 29, 2010 6:19 PM

The most sensiable action would be to reverse the order so that Massa is reinstated to be the Winner with the Points, but strip both Alonso of his Points also Ferrari of the Constructors Points from the German GP. Also leave the Fine as it is.

RednBlue July 29, 2010 7:16 PM

This is James Allen (not a hardcore Ferrari fan):

"If it had been agreed before the race that Alonso was the driver Ferrari wished to take maximum points from the race, then there would have been an arrangement in place to switch the cars around if Massa found himself ahead. It doesn’t appear to be the case here and anyway I doubt whether Massa would have agreed to that.

However he would have agreed to a system for establishing who is the faster driver. It seems that there was an agreement in place about the size of lead and a mechanism for showing who is faster, as a basis for Ferrari to make a decision. This may be a legacy of incidents earlier in the season, such as Australia, where Alonso was held up by Massa and the team took no action.

Judging from the messages to Massa from his engineer Rob Smedley, it seems that the notion of a three second lead was important, Smedley pointed out to Massa that he had three seconds in hand over his team mate at one point and described that as important.

But Alonso soon ate into that lead, getting it down to below a second, which was his way of proving that he was faster. Faced with Massa’s inability to match the pace and having lost the three second lead, the team had the evidence it needed to tell Massa that Alonso was faster than him, which was clearly the agreed etiquette.

I’ve been researching this a bit over the last few days and this kind of arrangement is quite common within teams. There has to be some way for teams to assess which driver is faster on the day and if the driver who is following can prove that he can close up a gap then it shows that he is faster.

This tipped the balance in Alonso’s favour in Germany.

We saw it last year in Germany when Jenson Button was behind Rubens Barrichello and Ross Brawn radioed the Brazilian to say that they were losing time to Rosberg and that if Barrichello couldn’t keep the pace up then he “should let Jenson have a go”.

So it was last weekend; with a threat from Vettel in third place and mindful of the championship situation, Ferrari formed its decision."

screw July 30, 2010 12:41 AM

they spolt a not so good race whitch  might have got us criying for more inter team fighting towards the end of the race !for the sake of a sponser ! i hope not

Peter Cavellini July 30, 2010 2:55 PM

Have just re-read my Autocar mag and looked at the picture of Massa and Alonso, written all over both of their faces was one story, they both new what had been done,AND they were both pawns,i know if it was me i'd walk out, don't care what it costs, because no matter what was on the contract one party wasn't!.As for Alonso, well i think he's got a heart, i hope so because you wouldn't do that to a mate would you?, maybe the way to deal with this is the speed ticket way sort of,ban them for the rest of the season, make them pay compensation to their drivers and all who will have no work for he rest of the season, if they decide to leave F1?..so be it!

Sats July 30, 2010 7:17 PM

Most fans understand why it is done, but its the timing that sticks in the throat. Massa is still in the hunt for the championship and it is just Alonso throwing his weight about again. Dock Ferrari and the drivers the points then replace the rule with one that bans team orders until driver A is a certain number of points ahead of driver B. That way it allows drivers to race when there is something in it but when there is no point to that because of the points differential, it promotes the team

david RS July 30, 2010 7:35 PM

What shocks me and for several GP are the requests of Alonso by radio.

"It's ridiculous", etc.

FR3000 July 30, 2010 9:37 PM

This type of thing goes on in WRC all the time and no-one bats an eyelid; but then WRC has proved itself to be a much more fair and down to earth sport.  

The deliberate penalties are incurred in places like service which means regardless of overall stage times the drivers are almost always going flat out in the stages themselves - maybe that's what makes it interesting?

If they get rid of rule 39.1 maybe they should send the blue flags to the archive along with it.  It wasn't always the case that back markers had to yield to faster cars when being lapped, the onus was on the driver to employ his skills to cut his wasy through the traffic.  Perhaps 'less' is indeed 'more' in this type of case.

FR3000 July 30, 2010 9:41 PM

In reference to my previous comment - I only hear what goes on in F1 from reading about it in the news; such is the tedium of the same old pathetic squabbling in the sport that I have completely lost interest in recent years.

road runner July 30, 2010 9:57 PM

There are two championships at play in F1; Drivers and constructors. At a team level, Ferrari would have gained the same amount of points had Massa not let the high-maintenance primadonna through. So any point made regarding the team aspect of the sport is totally and utterly irrelevant.

Any team orders given which influence the outcome of one driver over the other is unethical manipulation of results. The fact that this has been around since time immemorial is irrelevant. Any time now, would be a good time to wipe it out for good by bolstering the rules and establishing a way that drivers can report such team  request to the FIA. The rules should deem that any such contractual or verbal agreements between team and driver would result in an automatic disqualification of a team's entire season's points. This rule should be applied to ALL FIA formulae.

As to Ferrari, I'd disqualify Alonso's result, and award the points to Massa. Further to this I'd remove Ferrari's constructor points for the German GP.

If I wanted to see a show, I can go to the West End or watch wrestling. Motor sports need to remain a sport, subject to the same rules and ethics as any other pure sport.  

david RS July 31, 2010 12:01 AM

Alonso should stay at the beach one or two GP, Ok.

I love his reaction after the race: "Felipe, did you missed a gear?" ... Pathetic ...

Dave Ryan July 31, 2010 2:56 PM

@ Peter Cavellini: agree that Alonso was probably just as much a pawn in this as Massa (something which probably goes against the tide compared with most British reaction) - his body language out of the car was of a man who was very much confused at what had happened. However, I'm not sure I can agree that "too many rules" is the problem - that is almost like a burglar complaining that the only problem is the Theft Act. Badly drafted rules perhaps, but if the rules weren't needed they wouldn't be there in the first place.

NurburKing007 August 1, 2010 3:14 AM

Ferrari is the best. Period.

kdwilcox August 1, 2010 7:43 PM

What Ferrari did was wrong,very wrong but only because they were found out,team orders have been a  part of F1 since the start in the 50s.

Those who think this is not the case want to start liveing in the real world,many have said it is not a race when this is done.

Is it a race now?i don't think so,the back markers have to get out of the way of the leaders,why,the leaders should take them with little trouble like they used to.

There is only one way to stop team orders,only have one driver,that will never happen.

As for the other teams saying it is wrong and they don't do it,well,it is wrong yes but they do it as well.

Take notice of what both DC and Bernie  said,its part of  F1 and just get on with it.