Wed
May 06 2009

Branded as failures?

Hilton Holloway
The ability of ailing car marques to hang on, despite years of falling sales and rising losses is one of the peculiarities of the automotive industry.

But the swirl of rumours around Fiat’s audacious bid for GM’s European division have suggested that Lancia and Saab will finally be killed off.

(Although Saab is currently set to be sold off a separate entity, Fiat’s bid seems to be based on the idea of taking the whole thing off GM’s hands as a job lot).

Both Lancia and Saab have traded on past glories and both have failed to achieve either true blue-chip individuality or to command premium prices within a larger corporate group.

Perhaps Saab and Lancia were fatally damaged when forced to build premium-priced cars based on the mass-market components of the time.

I owned a Cavalier-based 1993 Saab 900 and it was a really poor car (though it was subsequently rapidly improved) and least said about the Fiat Tipo-based Lancia Dedra, the better.

In any case, for the last decade, neither Saab nor Lancia have managed to shift much beyond 130,000 cars each year. Profits were sunk not only by low sales but also by the need to develop individual styling and engineering to maintain ‘brand values’ as well as paying for unique marketing campaigns.

The car industry theory seems to be that it is easier to ‘revive’ a once-great brand, rather than take a risk on developing a new badge.

Even so, legendary engineer Ferdinand Piech was supposed to have said that if he’d know it would have taken 20 years to turn Audi into a blue-chip brand, he wouldn’t have bothered.

The Anglophile BMW board learned a similar lesson when they bought Rover Group in 1994. £800m looked like a bargain when it included a raft of brand names including Rover, Land and Range Rover, Mini, Triumph and Riley.

But BMW was broken by the cost of re-engineering and re-inventing Rover (with the 75), Mk3 Range Rover and new Mini, especially as Rover Group sales started to collapse in 1998.

BMW had thought that it couldn’t expand into new markets under its own badge. Cars such as the X5 proved that it could.

Perhaps the one thing that will come out of the great auto industry recession is the recognition that ailing brands will have to be dispatched dispassionately. Last autumn a Renault board member assured me that the near-premium brands would be first victims of the downturn.

GM has – or is about to - bin Saturn, Hummer and Pontiac. In Europe, Saab and Lancia now look the most vulnerable in a much-more hardheaded car industry.

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About Hilton Holloway

Has two product design degrees and used to design mountain bikes. Realised that cars were a lot more interesting in 1990, and has been writing about them ever since.

Comments

Audi Tastic May 6, 2009 6:35 PM

In the UK and on this forum people have been happy to see the US brands go pop, as there was a feeling they deserved to, and a lack of emotional connection.

I get the feeling no one in the UK would be that bothered about Lancia going but Saab seems to stir up some protest - people thinking with their heart rather than their heads?

ordinary bloke May 6, 2009 8:14 PM

I'd be sorry to see SAB go as I enjoyed the 1989 9000 that I had for a while, but a relative has recently had a 9-3 Estate as a company car and it was nothing but trouble apparantly.  I can't see the merit in maintaining Lancia, just plain weird looking range these days, and I'd thought Italians were stylish!

Just listening to the news on the radio as I write this and it seems that the grants  or loans due to be given Jaguar/Land Rover are unlikely to go ahead now as the company has taken exception to the conditions imposed by the Treasury, so maybe we'll be seeing Jaguar/LandRover disappearing eventually as well - and that would be a shame.

horseandcart May 6, 2009 8:21 PM

Seen the news about Jaguar Land Rover Hilton? HM Treasury playing hardball with Delhi based magnate by name of Tata. Oh dear. Jaguar and L/Rover also candidates for your hard-headed industry, dispassionate brand cull? Me thinks you Brits couldn't stomach that death. Vauxhall, yes but the blue-blooded Jag and the go anywhere best 4X4Xfar surely not! Ah well, makes a change from that wannabe Machiavelli Marchionne hogging the headlines. Marchionne the Clown Prince?

jonfortwo May 6, 2009 8:26 PM

"Lancia and Saab will finally be killed off."

All the time we have unknown manufacturers such as the chinese looking for some credibility these manufacturers have a value and the bizarre antics of the FIAT group at present will mean that they will be sold to recoup some cash.

If the German government do allow the sale of Opel to FIAT it really will be a travesty of our times and will be a "panic" sale of monumental proportions and a serious error of judgement.

It is sad to see any famous name fall by the way side and Lancia and SAAB are steeped in history, it was there acquisition by multinationals that diluted there very essence and now it will happen again with OPEL.

If the Italian ego-maniac does get his way it will be a sad day for the motor industry as a whole,

HiltonH May 6, 2009 9:32 PM

Oddly enough, Horse, I wrote a finally line musing on JLR and then deleted it....

Not great news, though. Spent the weekend in our XF test car and it's fine thing.

Scoobman May 6, 2009 9:33 PM

It is really strange to see Fiat, a company which has presided over 3 decades of supreme mediocrity, bidding to become an automotive powerhouse and solve the problems of GM Europe while rescuing Chrysler as well.

Good luck to them, but the whole thing simply beggars belief. We live in strange times.

HiltonH May 6, 2009 10:08 PM

Well, I did say that the the car industry would rather revive a brand than start a new one...

This just in...

NEW YORK (dpa) -- Renault-Nissan is talking to General Motors about buying GM's Saturn line, according to two different published reports today.

The Wall Street Journal cited two informed, unnamed people close to the Renault-Nissan talks as saying Saturn could provide the basis for growth in North America for the joint French-Japanese firm.

Earlier today, Bloomberg reported that Nissan, Japan's third-largest car maker, could join a venture with U.S. retailer Penske Automotive Group and Saturn.

Nissan, along with its affiliate Renault or another car manufacturer, could make Saturn-brand vehicles in an arrangement operated by Penske and distributed through Saturn's existing retail network, people close to the talks told Bloomberg.

roadtester May 6, 2009 10:09 PM

Personally, I think the government is right to set very tough conditions on any support for JLR. Where are the Tata billions now?

Even now JLR is a staggeringly arrogant and complacent outfit - anything that shocks them into sorting themselves out has got to be a good thing.

The Fop May 7, 2009 9:28 AM

While Lancia seems surely doomed (for many reasons) I don't feel the same way about Saab.  While GM was never able to give the support required to develop their product portfolio, the brand has somehow managed to maintain much of its appeal.  I can see it quickly being rebuilt if given the right backing - unlike Lancia it can claim to be a global brand with a pre-existing US distribution network that must look mighty tempting to many potential buyers...

N0077666 May 7, 2009 9:35 AM

This will upset a few people, but... is the loss of a few manufacturing plants sucha big loss to the UK?  Looking at the economic evolution we were the first nation to become industrialised, and are fast heading into the next stage of high-tec industries and services.  Some people would say this is a bad thing, but it really isn't.  Look at Switzerland, they don't make any cars (quite the opposite, I don't class Rinspeed as an ordinary car!!) and don't have any real meaningful manufacturing industry, yet they have one of the highest GDP per capita in the world, and a very high standard of living.  Food for thought!  

With regards to losing Vauxhall, its not as if we manufacture most of their products anyway, as far as I'm aware, only the Astra and some vans.  Yes, there is the whole support industry that goes with it, but again, how much of this is imported nowadays anyway?

JLR?  They won't go under at all.  Tata is just been sensible and realising that the government bailouts are a waste of time.  Sure they'll take a hit in the short term but they will recover, and Fiat taking over GM Europe, well the Romans conqured Europe once before and quite succesfully, don't doubt they'll do it again, in a different manner!

Personally I think the whole worldwide car industry will come out of this recession in a far healthier state than it started.  It was like a straggly old tree that needed pruning. Sure some people are going to lose jobs, some historic brands will sadly die, but I think we will get some better products out of this mess.  Does anyone really want another Astra thats good, but not quite as good as the Focus or Golf, or anorther Saab that promises return to form but sadly disappoints?  I do feel sorry for those people who will lose jobs, but it will happen sooner or later, this recession or the next.

N0077666 May 7, 2009 9:43 AM

Oh and as far as The USA is concerned, let them and their greedy unions shoot themselves in the foot.  After recent travels to China and SE Asia, thats the future.  They've seen our mistakes, and our successes, and will learn from them.  They will become the manufacturing powerhouse that the USA is slowly letting burn to the ground!  

horseandcart May 7, 2009 10:48 AM

N0077666 May 7, 2009 9:35 AM

Look at Switzerland, they don't make any cars (quite the opposite, I don't class Rinspeed as an ordinary car!!) and don't have any real meaningful manufacturing industry, yet they have one of the highest GDP per capita in the world, and a very high standard of living.  Food for thought!

- are you a real person 'N0...' or a p!sstake?

Switzerland has a manufactring sector approaching twice the size of UK's on a proportionate basis based on machine tools, electrical and mechanical engineering as well as large chemical, precision instrument, textile  and pharmaceutical industries.

Manufacturing in Switzerland represents around 20% of GDP conservatively whereas in UK it is no more than 14% much of which is foreign owned and controlled - witness Vauxhall and JLR. Switzerland still has many Swiss owned and controlled manufacturing businesses, foremost of which is probably ABB(Asea Brown Boveri, as was). Go to www.swissworld.org/.../economy and knock yourself out.

Just promise me you'll stay clear of what's left of UK manufacturing in employment terms after your sojourn through Asia on your gap year; it has enough to cope with already. Be a nice boy and go into something like the law, accoutancy or PR where you'll be well rewarded in doing an utterly pointless job.

Orangewheels May 7, 2009 12:16 PM

How long before Fiat offers to buy Jaguar from Tata?

N0077666 May 7, 2009 12:56 PM

Actually Horseandcart I'm a robot and thats my serial number!  What are you? An amazing talking horse that has such a glamourous job of pulling a cart, probably full of the s**t that comes out of your mouth!  I'm so glad you responded, so many times have I seen your rants against other peoples views, that seem to me as if you get a kick out of slagging other people off.  I think that if I put my argument the other way you would still have argued against my views!  

Now, lets pull your views to pieces like you do to everyone else!

Firstly, maths.  If Switzerlands manufacturing sector is approaching twice the size of the UK's, and in the UK it is 14% of GDP, that would make Switzerlands 28%, yet you state it at 20%!

Secondly, Law an utterly pointless job?  Ok, I'll come round to your stable and break your legs so you are out of the cart pulling business.  You won't be able to do anything about it because Law is pointless!  I'm sure there are plenty of accountants who will no longer work out your profit margin and tax return etc so you can't afford some luxurious carrots instead of boring hay (maybe thats why you are so grumpy all the time, because you don't get any carrots?!), or any PR people to help sell your business!

Thirdly you earlier made a comment about the JLR news.  Maybe you should have delved a bit deeper into it.  As far as I am aware Tata are pulling out of the government bailout because of terms which they don't agree with.  I believe one of them is for MP's get to decide who is on the JLR board.  Now, I am quite glad that Tata don't trust our government to assist in the running of JLR.  The government needs to stick to hiding porn in their expenses!  They have also sold some shares to raise cash to assist JLR, clearly showing their intention of keeping the brand alive and kicking!  

Now regards to my "sojourn through Asia on my gap year", never had a gap year actually!  And I work in the construction industry, and considering most people like a roof over their heads I think you will find that as a useful job, and in some respects, manufacturing, seeing as I manufacture buildings!!!  Oh, and I specialise in building immigration centres.  Looking at your comments I have an inkling your not from round here!!  Maybe I could show you one of the cells and lock you up to be sent back to horse land!

I look forward to your response horseandcart!

Uncle Mellow May 7, 2009 1:38 PM

This really is extremely entertaining - and I thought that Fiat and GM were boring.....

roadtester May 7, 2009 2:39 PM

Well horse, Switzerland also derives about 15% of GDP from financial services, which makes it look a lot like the UK.

In fact the UK also resembles Switzerland in that most of its manufacturing is pretty high-end - pharma, aero engines, F1 etc.

The countries that are going to be in trouble are those like Germany and France that instead of embracing change try to hang on at all costs to jobs that should have gone east years ago - volume manufacture of mass brand cars, to take one topical example.

horseandcart May 7, 2009 2:42 PM

@N0077666 May 7, 2009 12:56 PM

sorry robot man, if I'd known you were something big in construction I'd have been more respectful. What do you do, shovel operator?

It's MPs, plural for MP, by the way not 'MP's'. Still, must make allowances for hod carriers. And MPs decide jacksh!t when it comes to taxpayer money or not in JLR, it's the Government of the day and its ministers, in this case A.Darling, P.Mandelson and their respective permanent secretaries in the civil service.

Seriously, anyone who believes the statement '...[we, Blighty] are fast heading into the next stage of high-tec industries and services.' is not in need of admonishment or teasing from me but the services of a good shrink. Our 315 yr old aggregated national debt has just doubled in three years. By the way my noble brickie isn't 'high-tec' a make of trainers? Does this mean Britain is about to corner the casual footwear market? Hurrah! The Swiss will be bricking themselves(pardon the pun) with this new industrial powerhouse.

N0077666 May 7, 2009 3:13 PM

Well horse, I did indeed start out as a lowly labourer (as a groundworker by the way, no such thing as a shovel operator!), and I am now a Quantity Surveyor (chartered of course!) and control the purse on £40 million projects, small pennies really horse, not really in the same world as carting carrots to the market!

So anyway horse, seeing as a persons views apparantley gain validity with the job they do, what do you do?  Let me guess, it wouldn't matter because you are the best in the world at it and without you the world would fail to operate?  Damn I'm glad your around!

Oh and it's A. Darling, not A.Darling, and surely he is a Member of Parliament, as would any person be as part of 'the Government of the day and its ministers', so they would make decisions regarding taxpayers money!

And yup, high-tec do make trainers, no horse shoes though, sorry!  Maybe the swiss pharmaceutical companies may make a lotion that will turn your hoofs into feet, but then again your best of looking at blighty and the worlds second largest pharmaceutical company glaxosmithkline (2nd to the Americans with Johnson & Johnson), they might be able to help!

So you regard us as a new industrial powerhouse do you?  Now if I remember my history lessons correctly, I'm pretty sure the UK invented the industrial revolution, so wouldn't that make us the worlds oldest industrial powerhouse?  How about a clue... Yes it would!

Over to you horse!

horseandcart May 7, 2009 3:54 PM

@N0077666,

I'm so glad you replied. By the way I really do think you do an indispensable job for the country helping to keep out undesirables and you should be commended for that. Now, I've just been looking at the drive and the weeds in the fine weather are through the tarmac something rotten. As we're getting along so well and you being a QS t'would be no bother to you to drop off a lorry load of tar and a whacker and perhaps a few fellas to lay it. How about next week, after six. There's a drink in it for you - can't say fairer.

N0077666 May 7, 2009 4:30 PM

Fair enough horse, had my fun and rant, 6.30 ok?!

Dave52 May 7, 2009 4:59 PM

It's kept me laughing for a few minutes.

Scoobman May 7, 2009 10:19 PM

Cor.... Wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed with each other!

horseandcart May 7, 2009 10:47 PM

Scoobman May 7, 2009 10:19 PM

Cor.... Wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed with each other!

not at all! Oh, I see your point.

paulb77 May 8, 2009 1:56 PM

H&C

'Just promise me you'll stay clear of what's left of UK manufacturing in employment terms after your sojourn through Asia on your gap year; it has enough to cope with already. Be a nice boy and go into something like the law, accoutancy or PR where you'll be well rewarded in doing an utterly pointless job'.

Horse,

Had to stick my oar in.

Strikes me that, as a man who patently spends all his time on the internet researching his forum posts, you can't really have time to make a significant contribution to whatever unfortunate company has your services....

This is on my lunch break, when do you find the time?

I'm thinking you're not in any manufacturing business, in fact I doubt you are in private industry at all.

Just a guess, bored civil servant?

Get off your soapbox, you are driving people from this forum.

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