Autocar - First for car news and reviews

bomb March 16, 2010 10:24 AM

Gimme the keys for a couple of weeks and I'll give a definitive answer..

David Harrington-Wright March 16, 2010 10:28 AM

As Bomb just beat me to it, why not ask me and him along to the test drive, then we'll bring it back in one piece and let you know, after a little while and a tank of fuel, obviously!

rosstopher March 16, 2010 10:30 AM

Part of supercar ownership for most is the look of the car, as most normal drivers can't get close to the limits, this car just doesn't hit that spot for me, i'd much rather have a gallardo, or more importantly I'd much rather have an SLS.

Jeezitsonlyacar March 16, 2010 10:33 AM

While its competence and performance should be a given, one cannot help feeling that a trick or two has been missed in the styling. It's supercar-handsome, but in the wake of the F1 (and best leave aside the SLR) there is nothing about it which says 'McLaren'.

disco.stu March 16, 2010 10:38 AM

As far as supercar style goes, it just seems anonymous.  I am sure it will be amazingly good, but just doesn't seem to have any flair.  Even more German than the Germans...

jj johnson March 16, 2010 11:52 AM

It'll still look good in 20 years.  The F1 had more character though.  Kind of a super Audi R8.

kcrally March 16, 2010 12:08 PM

reminds me of a ' nsx '. depends how long they keep it in production. the mp4 will probably sell slowly but surely. also what is mclarens dealership / service plans.

bangertastic March 16, 2010 12:09 PM

It's certainly not a bad looking car but I feel the design lacks a little flair. It has a 'generic low volume sportscar' look about it.

My main concern is how sales will go outside of the UK and Europe - i.e. the US. Due to the relative unpopularity of F1 in the US, the McLaren name doesn't carry much kudos there so i'm not sure how the product will fare against Ferrari and Lamborghini. If they are not careful it will look like an expensive left-field choice.

Having said that, the technical spec looks mightily impressive and standing down any volume aspirations McLaren would appear to have created an awesome machine.

Sandy T March 16, 2010 12:17 PM

You're doing your best, aren't you Autocar? You're like McLaren's very own little PR dept. So they've had a look at the 458 spec sheet and thought 'oh heck, we'd better turn all the dials up'. And lo and behold it 'mullers' it...Well, seriously, yes it quite possibly will do. Just as the 959 was 'better' than an F40, the Carrera GT was 'better' than an Enzo etc... Problem is it's dull, just like it's parent company, founder and most it's F1 drivers. Don't panic Mclaren, it will sell. But it will never find that place in the hearts of pistonheads that Ferrari (& Lambo & Aston & Alfa) will always appeal to. Is it looks, is it history, is it that they have to make a few flawed cars first? Dunno. But despite the hi-tech it's not the head that makes the call.

rosstopher March 16, 2010 12:53 PM

Not looking good for Mclaren is it......

VirginPower March 16, 2010 12:56 PM

It's now a well-polished cliché that cars look better in the flesh, but that often means "It looks lower."

It works the other way around too, as photographers can highlight a design touch that makes the images impress where the reality doesn't.

With the McLaren, as you would expect, it appears to be a technical marvel, and the testing footage shows just how incredibly the chassis has been engineered.

The body shape and styling, however, is a mixture of bland and incorrect. That might sound a bit too objective, but what I believe McLaren designers have done is rather zealously use cues of the corporate logo and accidentally upset the looks of the car's flanks.

It's a long car, so I'm sure they will explain those double air-intakes as a visually functional element; they'll say it gives the profile impact. In fact, a little like the fix-roofed-Audi R8 mistake, it does the complete opposite. It is, to put it simply, badly proportioned and ugly.  It disrupts your appreciation of the line, rather than adding to it.

The whole car is quite a long way from 'golden', you might say, but the other awkward features are mostly a side-effect of function, making them completely forgivable.

The car sits high on its arches, but I imagine this is to give the best compromise between handling, driveability and ride quality.

The rear treatment is a matter of opinion - personally, I like it.

The front is where it becomes incredibly dull, uninspired and uninspiring.

The key to the McLaren Silly Name's inevitable success, though, will be the fact that it appears to be one of the greatest driving machines currently available, so the discerning owner will be able to squint as he walks away savouring a breathtaking drive.

It's not a vehicle at which you'll spend much time looking back over your shoulder, though.

every thing you say is right March 16, 2010 1:16 PM

I love the technical details of this car and the clean sheet approach to design. I'm particularly looking forward to reading about how the twin-scoll turbos and DSG style gearbox perform.

The revolutionary approach to chassis and body design is also something I'd like to read more of. This is really clever stuff and a refreshing break from the norm.

I'm a fan of the styling generally but can't disagree it could've been more remarkable and still maintained a timeless appeal. I love the 348 style rear end although I've yet to read of anyone agreeing with me on this! Silver paint really helps the looks too.

It's on my current list of cars I want to learn more about.

TStag March 16, 2010 1:32 PM

I love the fact that Mclaren have taken a purist approach. Clearly Mclaren are targeting performance and functionality over looks, its a rather Germanic approach and frankly that sells.

Latebreaker March 16, 2010 3:10 PM

Im not sure of the exact price of the McLaren, though im guessing above £100k and some. If I was to spend that amount of money on a car then yes it better be fast, but more importantly does it make you feel special.

...on that basis I think i'd have the 458.

Lanehogger March 16, 2010 5:26 PM

Regardless of whether the car will be any good or not until a full road test decides its fate, it is clear Autocar are already head over heels in love with McLaren and that nothing will beat it in any department. Period. Even if there are a few downsides there'll be some positive spin to turn bad into good.

I have no doubt the car will be a screamer, but it already seems like it'll be soulness and clinical with no passion. Merely a tool to go fast and set standards in grip, lateral Gs, aerodynamic efficiency, downforce, throttle response, suspension rebound, etc etc....  It's a road car McLaren not a race car!! But then the name itself sums up this car.

As for the styling, yes it's good looking but it lacks verve, flair, passion and controversy - everything nearly every supercar has. It's all very well styling a car so that it won't date in 10 years time, but if it's bland now, it'll be bland in 2020.

Cars can look dated in a few years but they can still look distinctive and memorable (for good or bad reasons). Just look at the F1 as a case in point.

Compared to a 458, Gallardo, Aston Vantage, Corvette, R8 or even a 911, the MP4-12C is just, well, dull.

John McToon March 16, 2010 5:58 PM

Does anyone read Virgin Power's theses? I bet it riles him that people don't.

I think this car is superbly capable and it looks alright. I'd rather have the Ferrari though because it'll be 90% of the performance for a smaller percentage of the price. It also looks much nicer. I've got used to this shape already and they haven't even launched it.

manicm March 16, 2010 7:00 PM

Well let's wait for it to be actually released before saying it's gonna slay the *you know what*, esp. in corners.

Jinky 200 March 16, 2010 7:05 PM

Impressed? Yes! Want one? No! For those with OCD only!

PhilM4000 March 16, 2010 7:14 PM

It is a McLaren, therefore it will be an engineering showcase.  I am a function over form sort of person, I think great engineering has a style of its own.  It's like buying a Leica over a Canon or Nikon, IWC rather than Rolex or Omega.  The average punter has never heard of them but you know you have bought an something very well made.  Some enjoy showing off in their Ferraris or Lambos and make sure everyone sees them in it, the person in the McLaren will just enjoy the drive.

Overdrive March 16, 2010 7:25 PM

Steve Sutcliffe: "...I’d love to know what you lot think; yes or no? And if not, why not?"

What do I think? Well Steve, you've certainly done your bit to hype the new McLaren to high heaven and beyond. So I think it'd be better live up to the hype.

So, for now neither a yes nor no from me. Just a "don't know" until it is tested (without any preconceived bias) against its targeted opposition.

manicm March 16, 2010 8:08 PM

PhilM4000 - apart from the lack of carbon-fibre in its body if the 458 isn't a technology showcase I don't know what is - and the car is now acknowledged to possess probably the most accomplished chassis of any supercar on sale right now, R8 included.

cornflakes99 March 16, 2010 8:15 PM

The Anti-British brigade are predictably out in force, maybe you'll be happier if autocar had a no British car testing policy, but then again I've seen so many quotes about them being biased to so many auto-makers that it probably makes them as neutral as Switzerland, if you're Pro everyone you can't be anti-anyone!

"until last week I hadn’t been overly enamored by what I’d seen"

"it isn’t drop dead gorgeous in the traditional sense"

"The noise it makes doesn’t make the earth shudder beneath your feet"

it doesn't strike me that Mr Sutcliffe is getting too carried away with McLaren's new toy.

cornflakes99 March 16, 2010 8:27 PM

@ John McToon

"Does anyone read Virgin Power's theses"

I tried to once, it was like watching my dog sleep,

lots of dribble followed by a series of farts.

gathome March 16, 2010 9:05 PM

There are a lot of people here criticising this car on the basis of their evaluation of style. I must confess to finding art galleries totally boring, paintings do little for me. When I hear of vast prices being paid for works of art I cant help thinking about Danny Kaye's song about the Emperors Suit of Clothes.

I prefer artifacts to art, and would walk past a painting to admire something well engineered.

For me function over form. So the McLaren appeals, mind you I must confess I think it looks rather nice too.

A lot of people must favour function over form, after all look how well Golf GTIs sell, when they look as exciting as a box of cornflakes.

So I would expect the McLaren to do rather well.

DKW March 16, 2010 9:49 PM

I'm surprised at the number of people expressing a preference for Ferrari etc.

To me the McLaren has an image that enjoys at least the technical kudos of Ferrari, without having the image problems.

I wait eagerly to see how much pleasure the car can provide in real world driving. For those suggesting that it will be technically impressive, but lack emotional involvement, I don't remember many test drivers falling asleep while testing the F1 ...

mx5xm March 16, 2010 10:11 PM

Sandy T, to quote you -

That is one of the most unprofessional, irresponsible pieces of writing I have ever read in Autocar. On the basis that you are not stupid I am assuming you are trying to be provocative. It may give you a warm feeling, but as they say, so does wetting yourself in the sea.

My thoughts exctly about your comments above.

McLaren are thoroughly professional company who made the ground breaking F1 and who had Ayrton Senna as well as Alain Prost and Nikki Lauda as their world champions. Boring? None of them. What ever your agenda is, gets your facts in order.

Fred Dagg March 16, 2010 11:23 PM

... and the company founder, Bruce McLaren, was certainly not dull. Racing in the Can Am series in the late 60's was not for 'dull' people.

Uncle Mellow March 16, 2010 11:41 PM

I think it's McLovely Steve , but I'm afraid it simply wouldn't suit my lifestyle these days.

Overdrive March 17, 2010 5:30 AM

cornflakes, you're being a bit selective with your quotes of the article, aren't you? Here are some others you could've chosen to post too:

"In the raw, though, the MP4-12C has miles more presence than it does in photographs",

"What I also hadn’t grasped until last week is how insanely rapid the new McLaren is going to be."

"it is going to comprehensively destroy everything else in its class in a straight line – including the new Ferrari 458"

"this is going to make the MP4-12C significantly more accelerative than its famous ancestor"

" it “absolutely mullers” all the other cars they’ve benchmarked it against dynamically – including the you-know-what – and yet it’s also entirely comfortable to drive on the road."

Sutcliffe not getting carried away? Well is getting something!

Chas Hallett March 17, 2010 8:33 AM

Well I've seen the new car several times now and although it does look better in the metal than the pics it's still a bit 'generic supercar' for my tastes. Especially next to the downright lovely Ferrari 458 and still fresh looking Gallardo. I may change my mind when I see it yet again tomorrow but I doubt it.

The inside is a different story though - it's terrific and has plenty of touches that make you think you could live with it everyday; just like an R8 or 911.

For me the big question is whether anyone will buy it? With electronic dampers, clever engine and gearbox etc etc it should have lots of ability and may muller the rivals (the test driver's words by the way - not Steve's). But is the McLaren brand too clinical and too passionless to excite supercar buyers?

I hope not because it would be great for the UK to have a bone fide supercar that can compete with the big boys. But I would say it's by no means a done deal.

By the way McLaren is releasing lots more tech detail on the MP4 tomorrow. Watch this space  

Sandy T March 17, 2010 9:02 AM

mx5xm - I stand corrected.

rosstopher March 17, 2010 9:34 AM

What are Mclaren hoping the production numbers will be?

I think there will be a small following in this country and not much elsewhere, Jay Leno might buy one but i don't think many Americans will as the brand means nothing there.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter how good or bad the car is if no one buys it it's a failure.

ShvsIrns March 17, 2010 9:48 AM

Right on the money Sandy T - on all counts. At last some sense where it really matters.

MattDB March 17, 2010 10:28 AM

I watched the video and the car sounds a bit flat, a bit like the old Lotus V8 in the Esprit which sounded like a pair of 4 cylinder engines rather than the choice or rumbly US/Oz V8's or a screamer like an Italian V8's

Must say the car looks better in silver than the dodgy orange.

Styling is good rather than wow, but then you can say that about the Gallardo as well.  The 458 looks sensational now but I think it will date, like the SLS has instant wow factor but will also look old very quickly.

Interior looks cool and different.

I look forward to the first road test.

Ektor March 17, 2010 10:35 AM

I think that so far there is a general consensus that technically and dynamically it'll be brilliant but that the flaws are many and major:

1) Generic and dull. Not ugly, mind you, but the shape is unispiring in a category, supercars (this is not a hot hatch, guys), who'se single highest prerequisite is "make my day"; you need to develop lust in a supercar the moment you see it, then sit in it, then start the engine, never mind driving it! (of course that's critical, but AFTER covering the bases). You could add any wannabe-supercar badge to this car and it wouldn't look out of place (You know, Gumpert, Koeniggsegg, Ginetta, et al). Please hire a top-level designer to fix this for the next generation (if there is one), whether it be Giugiaro, Ian Callum or, better yet, Peter Stevens, who I believe worked for you and designed 20 years ago something that, even today, looks better than this.

2) MP4/what?! Ladies, this is a road car, not a race car with an internal designation number which will only be known in years to come by anoraks. Now, Ghibli, Miura, Esprit, Vantage, heck, even Panamera are evocative names! Please, hire someone with a minimum of marketing/brand management knowledge before you deep-six all the engineers' hard work!

3) Sales and service: Where, how many and by who. In the UK it'll be ok, since it's close to Woking, but how about the rest of the world? What happens when there's a recall and many cars reside in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Beverly Hills, let alone the few in Buenos Aires? How long will it take to be repaired when there's a fender bender? A lot of homework to be done on that front.

All in all, impressive hardware, McLaren , but you better work on everything else. Hard.

road runner March 17, 2010 11:00 AM

Mostly impressed with the engineering of this car. The naked tub looks like an evolution of Lotus's chassis  principals.

LJKS would have kvelled lyrical over the MP4-12C.

Orangewheels March 17, 2010 11:13 AM

Exterior styling is just so unbelievably bland and derivative, as anyone who can type Ascari KZ1 into their browser will see...

It's just such a shame - the carbon monocoque is a game changer at this level and will no doubt produce a great performing car, but to saddle it with these looks is really commercial suicide.  Even the alloy wheels are dull, and there is none of the wow factor of the competition. Supercars are meant to be exciting first and foremost, designers have pretty much free reign to come up with whatever shape they like and this design seems just lazy. Jaguar learned with the last XJ that it doesn't matter what goes on underneath, if the looks aren't right it wont sell.

I do think Mclaren knows this now (how they didn't realise it in the first place is the more worrying aspect) and hopefully this mistake will be rectified on other models in the range, but the fact that this monumental *** up has has to be lived with for the 8 yrs or so of the life of the product or at least 4 before the refresh, means that Ferrari and Lambo are laughing all the way to the bank.

disco.stu March 17, 2010 12:13 PM

Weren't McLaren having a video thing being streamed live yesterday?  Whatever happened to that - did they cancel the launch?

Em nine March 17, 2010 12:53 PM

I find it a shame that Steve Sutcliffe is getting criticism for enthusiasm; this is a blog not a ‘proper’ Autocar article. Are journalists not allowed to get a tad over excited and passionate like other petrolheads? Especially as he’ll eventually get to drive the thing, unlike us on here.

I can understand where people are coming from on the bland styling and agree to a large extent, but I would imagine those with the funds to be in the market for one wouldn’t always want ‘flash’ like a Lamborghini.

I kind of like its ‘walk quietly with a big stick’ approach.

Overdrive March 17, 2010 1:14 PM

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Sutcliffe shouldn't be or is wrong to be excited about the new McLaren; just that he seems to have really gone to town on this car's performance and dynamic abilities without even having tested it yet.

Sutcliffe could well be right in his views (and to be fair, on the car's dynamic abilities, he is only quoting McLaren's test driver), but this car suddenly has an enormous amount to live up to.

btw, is the engine McLaren's own, i.e. fully designed, developed and built in-house? I ask because the company is not known so much for building engines and tends to use other company's engines either in F1 or in its road cars.

LoganMotor March 17, 2010 4:33 PM

I think it's ridiculous that people are treating styling as if it's objective.  I think the 458 is very over the top, and prefer the Macca to it.  This is my OPINION.  Someone mentioned the Carerra GT not warming hearts like an Enzo?  I'd MUCH prefer a Carerra GT, I think the Enzo is one of the ugliest cars out there....again my OPINION.  Stop bashing, isn't it good that there are options out there for different tastes?  Shouldn't we be glad that competition will drive the performance and talent of the cars in the right direction?  I don't get the constant negative ranting.

manicm March 17, 2010 10:37 PM

With all due respect LoganMotor, and as you say everyone has their opinion, but you're the very first person to call the 458's styling over the top - you're just plain wrong here.

It is an utterly clean, uncluttered design, they managed to do away with the side cooling-slats that for 20 years was so fashionable (started with the Mondial/Testarossa remember) and it's very smooth.

I have no doubt that the McLaren may be even better dynamically, but looks-wise it seems a relic from the 80s. I like the overall shape, but those side-slats are so passe now.

Bogwoppit March 18, 2010 8:58 AM

Setting aside the debates over styling - subjective as ever, what has surprised me is the level of 'it's far better than the 458' which has emerged from the McLaren camp.

I think if I was them and I was so convinced in my own product I would let it do the talking for me.

After all it's not as if the Macca is going to dent the Ferrari sales figs, the 458 is sold out for yonks anyway.

SAJ1000 March 18, 2010 9:43 AM

Firstly, I have been reading Autocar's build up to the launch of this car with increasing cynicism. Autocar does seem to be the mouth piece of McLaren and I fear for anything approaching an objective review of the car when it is finally driven.

However, even as a rabid tifosi, I expect the car to be fantastic. Disappointing SLR aside, I think their brand values, engineering integrity and attention to detail will produce something very special indeed.

One thing that does amuse me though, is that this car apparently destroys the competition. I would be very surprised if they had managed to get hold of 458 for any length of time as there are so few kicking about. So how do they know?

road runner March 18, 2010 10:55 AM

@SAJ1000

"I would be very surprised if they had managed to get hold of 458 for any length of time as there are so few kicking about. So how do they know?"

I assumed that it was Sutcliffe's opinion based on the following:

"What I also hadn’t grasped until last week is how insanely rapid the new McLaren is going to be. For some reason I hadn’t quite registered that it is going to comprehensively destroy everything else in its class in a straight line – including the new Ferrari 458."

LoganMotor March 18, 2010 1:16 PM

manicm, I'm not sure how I can be wrong, I've seen the 458 in the flesh, and it doesn't do it for me.  It looks agressive, mostly due to height, but I've never been a fan of the enzo's four tail lights (too corvette for me), and the 458 pulls too much from it.  I also do not like the extremely fussy headlights.  The thing I appreciate most about the 458 is the powertrain, not the styling.  Despite the fact that the Mclaren might be faster, I'd prefer the 458's engine I think.  That's another debate, but the styling is purely a case of opinion.  I'm glad that there are so many options out there for us to lust after, whether or not any of us can afford them is another matter entirely.

tonym911 March 18, 2010 2:11 PM

+ 1 on that LoganMotor. Whenever someone describes someone else's view on styling as 'wrong', that itself is surely the ultimate definition of wrong.

tonym911 March 18, 2010 2:48 PM

To me the McLaren's lack of frippery is its best feature. You get the feeling every bit of it was designed for pure functionality. The thing about Ferrari I've always found puzzling is the amount of branding jewellery they feel obliged to plaster onto every new model. I've not done a survey but I bet the logo count on a modern Ferrari is one of the highest of any marque.

RacingPuma March 18, 2010 2:59 PM

Ferrari's plans for more efficient supercars in the future have been well reported but McLaren have got their retaliation in first.

Fabulous design detail.  This car is the first of a new generation of efficient supercars and the Ferrari 458 is the last of the old school supercars.

Still can't get over just how low the engine is mounted in the chassis - very F1, and just as I predicted (in a rival magazine) well over 2 years ago.

www.twitter.com/RacingPuma

big x March 18, 2010 6:29 PM

Sandy T, I think you should watch this video. The Ferrari comes a distant second on the passion front.

www.youtube.com/watch