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MartyB59 November 5, 2009 12:21 PM

Oh no! Don't do it. I cant bear to think of the further indignity for poor Lancia. Someone really needs to get their teeth into bringing them back. Look at some of their classics - I know they were flawed but that's why we love Alfas isn't it? I've had three when I was a bit younger, an HPE, a Monte Carlo - and, well, another one. both were great lookers in their day and I'd love an old HF.

Uncle Mellow November 5, 2009 1:32 PM

I still remember my first Earls Court Motor Show, circa 1960. There were three Flaminias on the Lancia stand , all in duo-tone paintwork , and I had never seen anything so breathtakingly beautifull.

noluddite November 5, 2009 5:29 PM

I concur with the comments regarding Monte Carlo, Flaminia, and Stratos, but I also remember the Beta well. Memories of Lancias are best left as that. They produced some good cars in the 70's but lost all credibility with the Beta. Lancia pulled out of the UK for good reason, and rebranding Chryslers isn't going to fool anyone. Even GM had the good sense to give their Korean junk brand a US name.. Chrysler and Dodge may be poorly regarded in the US, but they do have some cachet for those of us who still appreciate Americana. A 300c with a Lancia nose? Don't make me laugh.

fuzzybear November 5, 2009 5:35 PM

Lancia are a real soft spot for me too. I think Halletts right, it's hard to think of two other semi-luxury brands that have very little impact outside of their home territories.I really hope for Lancia's sake they don't go the way of Rover. I dont know about the logistics or economics involved but Ferrari did a good job turning around Maserati, perhaps they could do the same with Lancia.Maybe it would be an easier task ,since there wouldn't be overlapping models.  I think whatever happens, Fiat need to pay really close attention to VAG and mirror their brands accordingly. Lancia could be the new Audi- elegant, desirable etc and if they really, really aimed for Lexus style reliability,they might get somewhere close & would have a hit on thier hands with Chrysler, especially with a bit of Italian flair and style injected into the mix.

theop November 5, 2009 6:00 PM

the difference is in the history. Lancia has plenty along with racing laurels and pedigree,  Chrysler is a mongrel by comparison.

Pity.

MartyB59 November 5, 2009 6:44 PM

When will the uk motorist ever forgive Lancia for the engines falling out of Betas! It was forty years ago! Do you still look at Vauxhalls and say that the wings'll rust through in no time - do you still look at a Mini and wonder when the subframe will go?

david RS November 5, 2009 7:18 PM

!!(-(-ç!!_????

Lancia is a great brand : look at the Lancia Aurelia, Fulvia, Stratos, Delta MK1...

fhp11 November 5, 2009 7:27 PM

To MartyB59:

Indignity for Lancia!!! that must be a joke! I love the 300c - its a true slice of american motoring - I imagine most of the people who buy it do so because of its looks and "american image" whos going to buy it as a lancia?? Bad move.

manicm November 5, 2009 7:58 PM

Sorry Chas, both you and Fiat seem to be losing the plot. Yes both Lancia and Chrysler filled niche markets but there's one big difference - Lancia appeals to those who want to buy into Italianess.

Lancia has heritage whereas Chrysler has none. Take away the Italianess from Lancia and what would a hybrid marque have??

IMO this is a recipe for the disaster and the death of Lancia.

fuzzybear November 5, 2009 8:14 PM

MartyB59, that seems a bit of an over-reaction,most people have been complimentary to Lancia. I always think fondly of them,with the right direction i'd like to hope its got a future. It shouldnt be consigned to history

MartyB59 November 5, 2009 11:07 PM

Fuzzybear - you are right - only one comment regarding the unfortunate Betas on this forum. It was just enough to get me on my soap box. Lets say it was more of a question. I'd love to see them come back - as you said as an Italian Audi!

fhp11 - its no joke - Lancia have had a torrid time outside of Italy despite a lot of iconic, desirable and beautiful cars. Name a Chrysler that could have kept up with a Stratos or a Delta Integrale in anything other than a straight line - or one that looked like a Fulvia / Flaminia. Sorry - American motors in general will never have that history.

noluddite November 6, 2009 6:13 AM

If Lancia is such a great brand, and the cars so fantastic, why were sales so poor in the UK that Fiat withdrew it? To me, Chrysler has a much better image, and in the Viper and 300c at least, much more desirable cars. Lancia is the Italian Rover, a niche player with a poor image.

MartyB59 November 6, 2009 12:24 PM

Luddite - My rant about the British Motorist's perspective is why sales were so poor. They've never forgotten the Beta issues - unfairly IMHO. Moving on to today - no one would argue that Fiat (group) have serious corrosion problems anymore - but if you mention Lancias in this country - the reaction you get is that they are still rust buckets. However - the Lancias I've seen on the continent are pretty disappointing in their design and styling and I probably agree that they look like an Italian Rover! They need rescuing. I think Fiat have succesfully steered Alfa into a desirable brand again after years of pretty poor design, qualityand dynamic ability. Lancia have so much sporting heritage and history - surely it could be done. Do they still hold the record for the number of consecutive WRC's? As for the Viper - Lancia do not that sort of car - Fiat Group have Ferarri for that. Direct comparisons - a Neon? The 300C is pretty dramatic I'd agree - but it's no German and it's awful inside - that's one thing that Lancia always did well.

jsr123 November 6, 2009 12:38 PM

I would imagine that Lancia was withdrawn because UK buyers are attracted to well known, exclusive brands that say something about them. Despite groundbreaking Integrales etc., Lancia didn't achieve this.

Car choice, like any other consumer product, is founded on the premise of capitalism, which encourages a 'keeping up with the Jones' mentality. Simply put, Lancia didn't shout a strong enough statement about the owners purchasing power to neighbours and friends. I have and never will, embrace this ethic but a large percentage of the British public do and always will!

Sadly, great cars like the Citreon C5 (2.2 & 3.0d), Renault Laguna (all diesels), Mondeo (2.0 & 2.2 tdci) suffer from a similar image crisis but are saved from UK extinction by healthy fleet sales.

Manufacturers can & have, given cars like these the luxury static qualities associated with the premium brands like: Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Land Rover etc., with smooth yet sonorous powertrains; tactile & hard wearing interior furnishings and paint quality to withstand hundreds of hard winters and blazing summers. Set the price low enough and you naturally increase the brand entry point too.

But, to fully democratise a marque's luxury you must also successfully give it the same tangible qualities - like residual strength, (racing) heritage, & a long line of durable previous models - which characterise the premium players

The real challenge, which I hope Lancia & Chrysler achieve, will be mastering the intangible qualities like image & 'talkability' created by among other things, a modern, yet lasting, design footprint. I hope they succeed :)

noluddite November 6, 2009 2:12 PM

Marty, I agree with your comments. But we can't blame the British public for remembering the Beta disaster. After all, it is our memories of Lancias of this era that also creates our affection for the marque. Lancia must now produce some exceptional machines to banish our memories of the crud they have manufactured. Sadly, I doubt that they will, particularly as the new (joint) platforms will be engineered to cater for both American mass market and European 'prestige' tastes. I'm thinking Lincoln/S type Jag; Mondeo/X-type, Vectra/Saab 9-5.

MartyB59 November 9, 2009 12:45 PM

I'm afraid I do blame em - for remembering only the bad stuff and not the good - noluddite and - jsr123 - agree with your last posts - we could do with some variety though eh - our car buying in this country is SO conservative and badge orientated!

jsr123 November 9, 2009 7:39 PM

I think that various iterations of the Integrale (especially the Evo II), defined the brand, and have left an indelible expectation among British motoring enthusiasts. Namely, when will they produce anything as genre defining as this seminal super-hatch!

I think the Beta was handsome and technically advanced (independent rear suspension & rack & pinion steering in  1969?!!!) and remembered more for this, than the oft-occurring terminal rust!

What we need is a Fiat Coupe for the noughties. This car proved what Chris Bangle (of BMW fame) could achieve when he was on form; with it's edgy concave and convex surfaces. Performance wise, it humbled every contemporary contender, and then some. The Mk II, with it's  2.0 20 valve, turbo-charged, 5 cyclinder block scorched & warbled it's way to 60 in just over six seconds and nearly bested a Fezza 348 to 30!

Lest I forget, the stunning body coloured dashboard, tasty rims & 'interesting' exterior & interior colour schemes. I always loved the Dark green and tan hide colour combo :)

In the late nineties remember, lots of buyers ditched their Benzes & BMs for Pug 406 Coupes (still gorgeous today) and this Super Fiat (ditto) so if marques give us desirable enough alternatives, we will buy them :)

Lancia should team up with Fiat to give us more of the same. With the advances in engine technology they could surely squeeze over 200 horses from a low output 1.6 litre petrol block by bolting on a turbo and/or supercharger, while still achieving Co2 emissions of less than 150 and reasonable residuals.

This is how the Brera should have been. It's attractive enough but too slow, unwieldy & underpowered considering the price & market position. It's built to last , so a sub 10k, 2.4 20v diesel will be a decent buy.

With this in mind, perhaps Lancia should look to Peugeot and it's tasty RCZ for inspiration :) This car has long term success emblazoned all over it's Zagato-esque double- bubble roof :)